zedhead260
Well-Known Forum User
Nice tailgate 
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'Big Sam' - Octane magazine test
- Thread starter Albrecht
- Start date
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Just right for letting rain-water in - I wonder why Nissan changed them for rear-wing ventilators ?
Nick Howell
Active Forum User
Big Sam
There seems to be a lot of waffle and opinions about Big Sam recently, which is interesting, but as the present owner for over twenty years, some of the misplaced "facts" put forwards may need correcting.
I have known Tim Riley and his family for over thirty years and when I bought Big Sam and commissioned Tim to rebuild it the goal was to get it back to being the highly competitive, but slightly tatty, modsports racer that we both remembered from 1974. Fran Tuthill rebuild the bodyshell with strict instructions to retain as many of the dents, brackets and modifications from its previous rally and racing history as he could whilst making the shell straight and true. We had to cut out and replace a lot of the tunnel and nearside footwell and the nearside chassis leg, which was 3/4" in and 1/2" higher than it should have been, was straightened and re-inforced. All the rallying dents in the offside floorpan, rear arches and cross members for instance, were retained. Tim then did a great job rebuilding the car and though we could have had a 2.8 or 3.0 litre engine we decided to stick to the original size of 2.4. The latest ignition system, starter motor, fire extinguishers and ancillaries were fitted and the suspension rose jointed but little else was changed. The engine was put back in the same, further back, position and a modern limited slip differential was fitted.
Appearance wise we repaired the original fibre glass front wings, filling in the side light holes, repaired the doors and bootlid, which is a Datsun works part but we had to make a new bonnet. The slightly crude front airdam is also a copy of the original modsports item. We didn't remove items that were added when it had last raced with Martin Sharpe as they are part of its history but the car is as near to what is was as a 70's modsports racer as we could make it.
Since then Tim has raced it about ten times and I have used it about twenty times at Goodwood, Silverstone and for local sprints in Cornwall. Tony Dron raced it at Goodwood in 1992 and twice at the Bentley Drivers Club meetings at Silverstone in the '90's. We got Win Percy back in the car just before his tragic, botched, operation and the last time I had it out was at the Festival Speed in 2005. Maybe I haven't used the car enough to please some people but that can happen when you retain a car in period. Today, there is a renewed interest in early '70's period modsports cars and we have started to get invites to some serious new series racing.
All of the professional drivers that have driven Sam, Win Percy, Tony Dron and Jackie Oliver love it for its balance and handling. I thought it would interesting to ask Mark Hales, who not only races everything from GTO's to single seaters today but also teaches competition driving, to see what he though of Sam today. Though Tim's engine rebuild is now 20 years old and it has been my servicing and maintenance of corner weights, toe in, balance etc it was very pleasing to hear Mark Hales comments on the superb handling that the car has. Last week he was not only doing some serious lap times of under 1m 27 seconds at Goodwood but he he was having fun pulling away from a brand new GT3RS Porsche down the Lavant straight-whose owner said he was going at 147 mph-- and out handling it around the corners. Just like then old days with Nick Faure....
For those who get all tied up with Sam's history, The Count and I find it quite amusing, or should I say frustrating, that people still get mixed up over facts. In 1974 the first Big Sam--the ex works, Rob Grant car-- was written off at Brands Hatch during the modsports series, by Win Percy at Paddock bend. Within two weeks another ex works shell had been acquired, rebuilt and put back on the track where it carried on to win the class for the season. And the shell wasn't an ex Safari one but this is the car which is still going and which Tim and I rebuilt in period. The fact that it can beat more modern and sophisticated sports cars is a testament to Fran Tuthill and Tim Riley's skills with an ex works shell and my small efforts at maintaining it.
It might look like Spike Anderson's "Big Sam" but as Win Percy said, entering the pits, when I asked him if it felt like Sam used to be, "No, nothing like it; it handles properly now!"
There seems to be a lot of waffle and opinions about Big Sam recently, which is interesting, but as the present owner for over twenty years, some of the misplaced "facts" put forwards may need correcting.
I have known Tim Riley and his family for over thirty years and when I bought Big Sam and commissioned Tim to rebuild it the goal was to get it back to being the highly competitive, but slightly tatty, modsports racer that we both remembered from 1974. Fran Tuthill rebuild the bodyshell with strict instructions to retain as many of the dents, brackets and modifications from its previous rally and racing history as he could whilst making the shell straight and true. We had to cut out and replace a lot of the tunnel and nearside footwell and the nearside chassis leg, which was 3/4" in and 1/2" higher than it should have been, was straightened and re-inforced. All the rallying dents in the offside floorpan, rear arches and cross members for instance, were retained. Tim then did a great job rebuilding the car and though we could have had a 2.8 or 3.0 litre engine we decided to stick to the original size of 2.4. The latest ignition system, starter motor, fire extinguishers and ancillaries were fitted and the suspension rose jointed but little else was changed. The engine was put back in the same, further back, position and a modern limited slip differential was fitted.
Appearance wise we repaired the original fibre glass front wings, filling in the side light holes, repaired the doors and bootlid, which is a Datsun works part but we had to make a new bonnet. The slightly crude front airdam is also a copy of the original modsports item. We didn't remove items that were added when it had last raced with Martin Sharpe as they are part of its history but the car is as near to what is was as a 70's modsports racer as we could make it.
Since then Tim has raced it about ten times and I have used it about twenty times at Goodwood, Silverstone and for local sprints in Cornwall. Tony Dron raced it at Goodwood in 1992 and twice at the Bentley Drivers Club meetings at Silverstone in the '90's. We got Win Percy back in the car just before his tragic, botched, operation and the last time I had it out was at the Festival Speed in 2005. Maybe I haven't used the car enough to please some people but that can happen when you retain a car in period. Today, there is a renewed interest in early '70's period modsports cars and we have started to get invites to some serious new series racing.
All of the professional drivers that have driven Sam, Win Percy, Tony Dron and Jackie Oliver love it for its balance and handling. I thought it would interesting to ask Mark Hales, who not only races everything from GTO's to single seaters today but also teaches competition driving, to see what he though of Sam today. Though Tim's engine rebuild is now 20 years old and it has been my servicing and maintenance of corner weights, toe in, balance etc it was very pleasing to hear Mark Hales comments on the superb handling that the car has. Last week he was not only doing some serious lap times of under 1m 27 seconds at Goodwood but he he was having fun pulling away from a brand new GT3RS Porsche down the Lavant straight-whose owner said he was going at 147 mph-- and out handling it around the corners. Just like then old days with Nick Faure....
For those who get all tied up with Sam's history, The Count and I find it quite amusing, or should I say frustrating, that people still get mixed up over facts. In 1974 the first Big Sam--the ex works, Rob Grant car-- was written off at Brands Hatch during the modsports series, by Win Percy at Paddock bend. Within two weeks another ex works shell had been acquired, rebuilt and put back on the track where it carried on to win the class for the season. And the shell wasn't an ex Safari one but this is the car which is still going and which Tim and I rebuilt in period. The fact that it can beat more modern and sophisticated sports cars is a testament to Fran Tuthill and Tim Riley's skills with an ex works shell and my small efforts at maintaining it.
It might look like Spike Anderson's "Big Sam" but as Win Percy said, entering the pits, when I asked him if it felt like Sam used to be, "No, nothing like it; it handles properly now!"
Nick Howell
Active Forum User
Big Sam
Sean, I'm not sure where you saw a "flat undertray" on Sam because I have never fitted one. There is ducting under the boot floor for the diff cooler and in 1994 I fitted what looks like an alumimium sump guard for easier jacking purpose but that is all.
As to events, so far there is talk of an invite to the Masters series to compete against the CSL Batmobiles, Cologne Capri's and fat tyred Escorts and I have been looking at the Classic Le Mans. If we have to change a few parts then so be it but the essential Big Sam will always be there and the stiff ex-works shell will make it handle well.
Sean, I'm not sure where you saw a "flat undertray" on Sam because I have never fitted one. There is ducting under the boot floor for the diff cooler and in 1994 I fitted what looks like an alumimium sump guard for easier jacking purpose but that is all.
As to events, so far there is talk of an invite to the Masters series to compete against the CSL Batmobiles, Cologne Capri's and fat tyred Escorts and I have been looking at the Classic Le Mans. If we have to change a few parts then so be it but the essential Big Sam will always be there and the stiff ex-works shell will make it handle well.
Nick Howell
Active Forum User
Sorry that should read 2004, not 1994 for the sump guard.
Ian Patmore
Well-Known Forum User
Thanks Nick for your input, I for one liked reading what you had to say.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Thankyou Nick - the only way to avoid waffle and misplaced facts is to shout the truth out as early as possible........and keep shouting it ! Look how now even the journalists don't mention 'the other Count' and we all call 'em S30s !
Perhaps you could dig out the racing results and competitors to compare against so we could all see the continued heritage, please.
But he IS up for sale ? So your plans to race him, perhaps at Le Mans Classic (I confirm that almost anything goes if you get on the right side of 'Peter' the Great) won't come to fruition and we must await the next chapter in Sams' life ?
I saw the car in '91 and soon after, Tim requested a whole bundle of photos of my metal Samuri spoiler to use as a guide for the one he was to produce. Was I mistaken or did I not see any chassis rails under the floor - it certainly appeared to be flat as per an undertray. You didn't fit one.......but did Tim remove one ?
What was the spec. of the car before the restoration ?
I guess another factor is not seeing the car out so much is where you live.....hardly renowned for circuits.
Nick Howell
Active Forum User
Big Sam
Hello Sean,
Yes Sam will be auctioned at the Bonhams sale at the Silverstone Classic on 23rd July.
Unfortunately I won't have a chance to drive it again before the sale. I was supposed to be driving at Goodwood last week with Mark Hales on the Octane track day but Bonhams gave me the wrong date and I turned up with car and team the day before! The following day I was booked to go to France with my wife so canceling that was out of the question and I had to leave Sam in the Paddock overnight.
The two box files of race results, specification sheets, rebuild costs etc etc that have built up over the years are with Mark Hales as he is writing the article for next month's Octane. So far the editor has said that they have some wonderful photos from the track day and that the piece will cover seven pages. Mark Hales is very much into driving impressions and what the car is like now so I don't imagine that there will be more than a passing summary of the car's history.
Interestingly there is a Masters race the day after the auction, at Silverstone, and if I get an entry Mark Hales has offered to drive the car for the new owner; he loved it.
Nick
Hello Sean,
Yes Sam will be auctioned at the Bonhams sale at the Silverstone Classic on 23rd July.
Unfortunately I won't have a chance to drive it again before the sale. I was supposed to be driving at Goodwood last week with Mark Hales on the Octane track day but Bonhams gave me the wrong date and I turned up with car and team the day before! The following day I was booked to go to France with my wife so canceling that was out of the question and I had to leave Sam in the Paddock overnight.
The two box files of race results, specification sheets, rebuild costs etc etc that have built up over the years are with Mark Hales as he is writing the article for next month's Octane. So far the editor has said that they have some wonderful photos from the track day and that the piece will cover seven pages. Mark Hales is very much into driving impressions and what the car is like now so I don't imagine that there will be more than a passing summary of the car's history.
Interestingly there is a Masters race the day after the auction, at Silverstone, and if I get an entry Mark Hales has offered to drive the car for the new owner; he loved it.
Nick
rallymanDP
Well-Known Forum User
Superb photo, Alan, and compliments again to Nick & Tim for their immaculate Restoration work and such diligent Stewardship of such an iconic 240Z.
Let's hope that the new Owner understands and respects it's provenance and looks after it just as well as you have, Nick
Let's hope that the new Owner understands and respects it's provenance and looks after it just as well as you have, Nick
datsun dave
Club Member
Have a look in Classic Car Weekly (June 16) page 7.
Huge picture of Big Sam in the Bonhams advert, plus a Silver '71 240Z.
Huge picture of Big Sam in the Bonhams advert, plus a Silver '71 240Z.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
And so, how much do WE expect the bidding to go to ?
£30 - 40k
up to £50k
£60k
£70 to £100k ?
any takers for above that ?
£30 - 40k
up to £50k
£60k
£70 to £100k ?
any takers for above that ?
JK240
Club Member
Yeah that is a lovely picture, is it purely for the ad? It would look great on my garage wall...
datsun dave
Club Member
£45 - £50k. It's a great car but limited market. Hope I'm proved wrong.
Also I looked into auction charges for both the seller and buyer. If I understand them properly on £60k charges would be about £12k, 5 buyer, 7 seller.
Also I looked into auction charges for both the seller and buyer. If I understand them properly on £60k charges would be about £12k, 5 buyer, 7 seller.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Anyone who buys this will have cash to spare so the charges won't matter - different world Rob !
I reckon the bidding at £65K tops.
The Le Mans Classic 2006 240Z reached €45000 at Rétromobile and didn't touch its' reserve price AND it didn't even deserve that !
I reckon the bidding at £65K tops.
The Le Mans Classic 2006 240Z reached €45000 at Rétromobile and didn't touch its' reserve price AND it didn't even deserve that !
It begs the question what should it go to?...eg what is its worth both physically and historically, irrespective of how much someone pays.
On a UK/European scale.... hugely significant as it is a vital key stone in the S30 racing/compettition/performance tuning scene in the 70's, linking people, cars, races, etc and is a better representation (competition wise) of what "was" over some road going chopped spring paint jobs.
On a world wide scene, also very significant as it sticks a pin in the UK for both an era and key people although it often gets clouded with memories/myth versus fact, and reading previous posts on US forums almost nothing is known about it (crime) in a continent where huge amounts of early Z's were sold, a fair amount were raced and a large amount still exist.
Bidding may go high, goodness knows it should, sadly I think it won't....I will go for £55K
Worth much higher, to me its iconic and unique.
I hope all goes well with the sale Nick (Howell)
.....even if you never returned my calls for an interview for the magazine in 2005
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
I agree with you that the cars' history is barely known outside of the UK Z scene, that Samuri isn't as well known as it should be outside of the internet Z scene which I suspect will brake the bidding.
Also, the possible FIA historic racing/hill-climbing ability of the car may be compromised, leaving it as a famous track-day fun car which may place a ceiling upon bidding.
That said, there's maybe someone with a packetload of money who wants the only well-known Z with a name..........but it takes two to tango !
I just hope that if it sells, it goes to someone who'll use it frequently which I'm sure Nick wishes too.
Also, the possible FIA historic racing/hill-climbing ability of the car may be compromised, leaving it as a famous track-day fun car which may place a ceiling upon bidding.
That said, there's maybe someone with a packetload of money who wants the only well-known Z with a name..........but it takes two to tango !
I just hope that if it sells, it goes to someone who'll use it frequently which I'm sure Nick wishes too.
zedhead260
Well-Known Forum User
...not forgetting this is a works shell.