'Big Sam' - Octane magazine test

[Albrecht]

The Octane magazine track day at Goodwood on Wednesday 19th May was used as the backdrop for an upcoming 'Big Sam' article.

Mark Hales ( Mark Hales - Racing Driver ) took the wheel for several fairly hot laps, and will be writing the article. We can expect a favourable report, as he seemed to be enjoying himself..

I believe the issue concerned should hit the stands towards the end of next month.

*Look out for the Bonham's auction at the Silverstone Classic on 24th July....*

 

[SeanDezart]

Shame upon you My Count for the latest 'Samuri' thread.......................

 

[racer]

Excellent. Mark Hales is a very respected driver in the racing world, I look forward to reading the article. Thanks Alan.

 

[Albrecht]

Shame upon you My Count for the latest 'Samuri' thread.......................

Eh....? Who said it's a 'Samuri' thread?

It might be a Tim Riley Engineering thread in its spare time ....

 

[SeanDezart]

Is this the full half hour or just the fifteen minutes ?

Tim's been immortalised by his famous 15 minutes with Sam.

 

[Albrecht]

15 minutes?

In my opinion, the car - in almost all aspects - reflects Tim's engineering, preparation and setup work. As he's not on hand to stick up for himself, I'll stick up for him. His name's not written down the side of the car for nothing.

When was the last time you saw it, then?

 

[Albrecht]

Ha ha, that was quick...!

http://www.datsun-france.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3100

Where shall I send the bill for the photos?

 

[SeanDezart]

Gotta spread the word and you're cited in the photos as the owner !

Everyone over here thinks that Zs did the Monte and that's that !

Tim ? Last time I saw him was just after my first wedding to which he was invited and was to drive down in his Model Ford.

The car (with him in it) was just before at Goodwood in '92 and before that at his place in early '91 in it's old colours, flat tyres and dust in his barn alongside his Dads' Healey).

I'm sure Tim has Internet so let him 'defend' himself but what makes you think he's being attacked ?

 

[pmac]

15 minutes?

In my opinion, the car - in almost all aspects - reflects Tim's engineering, preparation and setup work. As he's not on hand to stick up for himself, I'll stick up for him. His name's not written down the side of the car for nothing.

When was the last time you saw it, then?

And I will back up your opinion. The fact that the car is still alive and in such great condition is indeed down to Tims skills.

 

[SeanDezart]

..............oh, hello - been hiding ?

I'd say that it was down to the owners' care and attention. But has it raced since the 'grudge match' in August '92 ?

It should be and then we'd know if Tims' skills were up to it.

To be frank, a race car and race preparation are proven on a track, going the distance not posing on an NEC stand.

Let someone buy it and race it and THEN we can ALL really appreciate the car, its' history and its' preparation.

Question - was the car prepared to it's original 1974 Modsports state or ........?

 

[Mr Ex]

..............oh, hello - been hiding ?

I'd say that it was down to the owners' care and attention. But has it raced since the 'grudge match' in August '92 ?

It should be and then we'd know if Tims' skills were up to it.

To be frank, a race car and race preparation are proven on a track, going the distance not posing on an NEC stand.

Let someone buy it and race it and THEN we can ALL really appreciate the car, its' history and its' preparation.

Question - was the car prepared to it's original 1974 Modsports state or .......

.Does anyone really know what state of tune it was in, in the said championship other than Spike?

 

[Albrecht]

Suite de cette histoire....quand Rob Grant a vendu une 240Z à Bob Gathercole.....

Sean,
I think you're confusing Big Sam 'version 1' with Big Sam 'version 2'.

This one is not the ex-Rob Grant one, and it couldn't be prepped to its "original 1974 Modsports state" because it's not that "original" car.

Despite wanting to stick up for Tim I can't speak for him, so - as a semi-educated guess - I'd say that this car's current spec is in the spirit of the original ( and later ) Modsports rules, but is naturally a step or two in development beyond what both of the 1974 cars would have been.

But has it raced since the 'grudge match' in August '92 ?

The short answer to that is, YES.

It should be and then we'd know if Tims' skills were up to it.

Ouch! I don't think anything much should be inferred from said "grudge match". Storm in a teacup, more like. Two completely different cars, built with completely different purposes in mind. One of them a road-registered and MOT'd car with an interior that wouldn't look out of place on a yacht moored in the harbour at Monte Carlo, and one a pure race car without even a V5. And that's even without taking drivers into account. ( Candy ) apples and ( Tango ) oranges....

If you had been at the JDC meeting at Silverstone ( some years ago now... ) or at Goodwood last Wednesday, you could have judged for yourself how well the car goes when pedalled properly, and that in itself should be testament to Tim's work. I wouldn't sniff at it if I were you. There's not necessarily any secret magic to it, just a lot of thorough planning and some nice engineering. Easy to talk about, but not so easy to do when constrained by forces outside your own control....

And all this macho talk about "proving" and "posing" is just silly bench racing. Nobody needs to prove anything about speed, power, handling or whatever. The car in question has had a very varied and interesting life ( more so that I think you know or can even imagine ) and the only stories I'd personally like to see set straight are all the ill-informed and poorly researched fables about the car(s) that have been written down the years.

I've got a race car in one of my garages, but it hasn't actually raced since it's been in this country. Does that make it worthless, or give it something to "prove"? Of course not. All of these cars did what they did in period. Now we can just enjoy them for what they are. There's no real imperative to actually race a car like this if any new owner doesn't want to. It can be enjoyed in other ways. I hope it sells, I hope it sells well, I hope any new owner will appreciate what it is as well as what it was ( and what it wasn't! ) and will use it if he or she has the opportunity.

 

[SeanDezart]

Frankly Count - it's rare that I disagree with you but here I stand :

Name me the race (not track-day) it's entered....maybe finished and even won in the last 18 years ?

The only way to test (prove is another word) a race engineers' talent is to race the car, even better if that is over a seasons' racing.

Sorry, you're not one to judge if circuit driving (racing) is a valid evaluation or not and correct me if I'm wrong but I know of three cars in your garage - one is a genuine road car, one is a replica road car and another is a replica race car. None of them are likely to be seen on a race track and never in a race.

" I'd say that this car's current spec is in the spirit of the original ( and later ) Modsports rules, but is naturally a step or two in development beyond what both of the 1974 cars would have been."

It'd get wiped off in a current Modsports race where the only engine worth having is probably an RB30 and as for "spirit" of the orginal - read above comments on your cars - copies are copies and copies in mothballs are the worst !

Zs are for driving and the best way for Big Sam to be appreciated is to run it in historic racing - best way to keep it running in good order too.

Tim did a great job and has had his name down the side for years as a reward. What he and the car missed out on was track notoriety - I wonder if he did what he did with the car just to have it sit in a heated garage.

If iI know him as I did for a short while - he loved driving - he scared me to hell in mine down HIS country lanes - we finally stopped afetr avoiding two tractors and the front brakes were smoking !

ps the 'grudge' match was between Tim in Big Sam and James in his aluminium race-car - I have the video to prove it - I thought that you were there.......when you span off at Lavant Corner ?

 

[grolls]

Sean,
I think you're confusing Big Sam 'version 1' with Big Sam 'version 2'.

This one is not the ex-Rob Grant one, and it couldn't be prepped to its "original 1974 Modsports state" because it's not that "original" car.

Despite wanting to stick up for Tim I can't speak for him, so - as a semi-educated guess - I'd say that this car's current spec is in the spirit of the original ( and later ) Modsports rules, but is naturally a step or two in development beyond what both of the 1974 cars would have been.



The short answer to that is, YES.



Ouch! I don't think anything much should be inferred from said "grudge match". Storm in a teacup, more like. Two completely different cars, built with completely different purposes in mind. One of them a road-registered and MOT'd car with an interior that wouldn't look out of place on a yacht moored in the harbour at Monte Carlo, and one a pure race car without even a V5. And that's even without taking drivers into account. ( Candy ) apples and ( Tango ) oranges....

If you had been at the JDC meeting at Silverstone ( some years ago now... ) or at Goodwood last Wednesday, you could have judged for yourself how well the car goes when pedalled properly, and that in itself should be testament to Tim's work. I wouldn't sniff at it if I were you. There's not necessarily any secret magic to it, just a lot of thorough planning and some nice engineering. Easy to talk about, but not so easy to do when constrained by forces outside your own control....

And all this macho talk about "proving" and "posing" is just silly bench racing. Nobody needs to prove anything about speed, power, handling or whatever. The car in question has had a very varied and interesting life ( more so that I think you know or can even imagine ) and the only stories I'd personally like to see set straight are all the ill-informed and poorly researched fables about the car(s) that have been written down the years.

I've got a race car in one of my garages, but it hasn't actually raced since it's been in this country. Does that make it worthless, or give it something to "prove"? Of course not. All of these cars did what they did in period. Now we can just enjoy them for what they are. There's no real imperative to actually race a car like this if any new owner doesn't want to. It can be enjoyed in other ways. I hope it sells, I hope it sells well, I hope any new owner will appreciate what it is as well as what it was ( and what it wasn't! ) and will use it if he or she has the opportunity.

Now thats a fair point or two, so come on spill the beans, what have you tucked away....

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Like 'Racer' I'm eagerly awaiting the article, Have been in contact with Sam's owner today - just wish I could afford it! Nick is a great chap and has done the car proud but not used it enough to justify keeping it any longer.

Wouldn't we just love to see it raced in anger again with cars of it's era?

Alan, the photos are super - just look at Mark's eyes, he's 'on it'! Good old Sam!

 

[Albrecht]

Name me the race (not track-day) it's entered....maybe finished and even won in the last 18 years ?

Well, I was present at Silverstone when it showed very well in an all-comers race that was never really long enough. That was about 2001 from my sometimes unreliable memory....

But what does this mean anyway? It's been run, it was fast, nothing broke. All the rest is personal, I believe. A combination of the owner living quite far away from most tracks, and a distinct lack of suitable races that it would be both eligible for and competitive. That's the vintage Modsports conundrum, I think. It doesn't materially change what the car was or is, and the current owner doesn't have to answer to anybody about what he choose to do with the car. That's his business.

Sorry, you're not one to judge if circuit driving (racing) is a valid evaluation or not and correct me if I'm wrong but I know of three cars in your garage - one is a genuine road car, one is a replica road car and another is a replica race car. None of them are likely to be seen on a race track and never in a race.

How exactly am I "not one to judge"? You think I don't know anything about race cars, or these cars in particular? How come it's usually you asking me the questions then?

And what's all this talk of "replica road cars" and "replica race cars" ? What - indeed - is a "replica road car"?

As for my race car, it was a race car in Japan and it still is a race car now that it's here in the UK. I think you're just getting a little confused about it being described as a 'works replica'. Just because you haven't seen it on a track doesn't mean it hasn't been on one, and it doesn't need to be entered in a race for it to be fun to use in the ocasional track day or 'test' day. There are hundreds if not thousands of cars like that in this country. Some of them don't really think they have anything to prove. Even the odd bit of static display can be entertaining, educational and useful.

By the way, there are more than three cars in my garages

]" I'd say that this car's current spec is in the spirit of the original ( and later ) Modsports rules, but is naturally a step or two in development beyond what both of the 1974 cars would have been."[/i]

It'd get wiped off in a current Modsports race where the only engine worth having is probably an RB30 and as for "spirit" of the orginal - read above comments on your cars - copies are copies and copies in mothballs are the worst !

That was the 'spirit' of the original Modsports rules ( ie - when the car was originally competing - in 1974 ) I was talking about there. I don't think any current Modsports series is the right place for the car. See below.

No idea what you mean with the "copies are copies" comment....

This thread is not meant to be about me or my cars anyway. I was hoping we might discuss a little about what Big Sam might be eligible for, or what any theoretical new owner might do with it. Anyone care to contribute in that vein?

Zs are for driving and the best way for Big Sam to be appreciated is to run it in historic racing - best way to keep it running in good order too.

Quite so, but what race and/or series would you recommend any new owner might enter it in? I think its current spec might preclude it from taking part in some of the races you might recommend for it, and if you start changing the spec of the car, then where do you stop?

ps the 'grudge' match was between Tim in Big Sam and James in his aluminium race-car - I have the video to prove it - I thought that you were there.......when you span off at Lavant Corner ?

Ah right. I was living in Japan at the time so I might be thinking of a different occasion? In any case, the question still stands; what would any such "grudge match" actually prove anyway....?

My landing craft beach assault style visit to the Lavant Corner gravel trap ( I didn't actually spin, I just went straight on.... ) was on a different track day to the one you're thinking of, too. The gravel traps aren't there any more, but I still have some of that Goodwood gravel rattling around inside my rear wishbones.

 

[SeanDezart]

Will you stop talking about "proving".

The car has nothing to prove although Tims' prowess might be better vindicated, aside from a nice restoration but only in the spirit of the modsports rules which have effectively recluded him from any eligible historic competition now.

With all the excuses in the world, I maintain that a piece of motoring history such as this should be regularly used on circuits. If not, stuff it in a museum and condemn it to death.

Two outings since 1992 and one of those is a sales promotion..........shameful - hope the new owner does better.

Copies are copies. A replica is still a replica and the genuine article is different. I stop there as rightly the thread is not about your cars and we're not pally enough for you to have shared your garage.

Can't think of any other occasion when the either the red or green 'yachts' went up 'against' him and your tone suggests that you fall into the same category of nit-pickers at the time, the majority of whom might easily have been assumed to be jealous of the means flung at a Z at the time.

I wonder if the current trend of engine swaps produces the same feelings ?

 

[Ian Patmore]

Hi Alan,
A more straightforward question...is what looks like, an oil cooler sitting nicely in the rear valence (for diff?)? or just a vent for underbody air? (or something else?)

Ian

 

[Albrecht]

Hi Ian,
Thank heaven for straightforward ( and pertinent ) questions!

Yes, it's a diff cooler.

 

[SeanDezart]

It had a diff cooler back in '91 when I saw it - a flat undertray too.

It's a race-car - its' "raison-d'être" is to circuit-drive so let's see it out there !

So for what is it elegible ?