Series 1 240Z's (USA Imports)

Originally posted by abas
It is a bit of an Americanism, but I can assure you across the pond having a 'series 1' car is very important to many 240z owners, as it is the first model of the 240z that was imported into the US, which had quite a few detail differences to the later ones.

Andrew
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Sorry Andrew, but WHY are exports to the USA being defined / implied as something more important / significant than any other market version? Are we now - or have we always been - locked into having the USA-based 'experts' / 'gurus' decide what is what?

What are being described as "Series 1" 240Z models ( both HLS30 and HS30 ) were exported to more than one territory. If you want to divide, subdivide and subdivide again, one can come up with design details and changes all the way through production.

I know you have an early HLS30 ( as well as an HS30 ) - but do you honestly think of it as more significant or important than any other model? It's certainly not the rarest, the second rarest, third or even fourth rarest model ( if that's the criteria ) and I certainly don't think that it defines the series ( if it needs defining ).

Or is everybody too scared to point out the see-through nature of the Emperor's New Clothes?
 
You guys should get out more. The fresh air would do your brains good and you might then remember that all the bloody cars are great to drive. The first ones , the last ones , and the one and a half ones. The only ones that are no good to drive are the missing ones. And where are the "missing ones"??? Well ive cut the sods up for spares, (and to raise the"Classic" profile of the remaining cars!!) How cool is that Dudes?
Oh there is also the other few missing ones that will turn up one day when world peace reigns. But none of you lot will get your hand on them, you can be sure of that!
 
Albrecht

I was pointing out the American position. I didn't say I agreed with it.

As you have stated here before, those in the US do have their own 'take' on the relative importance of S30 series cars, which usually ends up as 'series 1' ( particularly early ones) cars being the 'most sought after' in the USA. You may think that is undeserved or inappropriate but that seems to be the American mindset.

I am under no illusions that a (not that early) HLS30 car is anything special, particularly in the UK. In keeping with most UK owners I am more interested in the condition of the car, and that's what makes my car special IMO.


Andrew
 
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Andrew,
Thanks for clarifying your position.

I find it somewhat annoying that the specs and design changes of the USA market export cars are very often used as 'Gospel' proof of what specs and design changes were seen on other market models. Of course, it is not always the case that the changes seen on the USA market HLS30 models were applied across the board to other market models and variants.

If one owns a non-USA market car, then one would be very careful not to treat observed design changes in the USA market cars - or those reported by Nissan Motor Co. USA, or even those reported on zhome.com - as 100% proof of how your car should be.

You can see what kind of reception I get whenever I point out the bare arse hanging out of the American figures. Most of this "Series 1", "Series 2" talk usually hinges around one major design change; the hatch vent to rear quarter vent change. It seems to me that 99% of people talking about "Series 1" or "Series 2" are mainly looking at the vent system, with any other details being of secondary concern.

Contrary to what people might think, I do actually appreciate and care about the LHD models. However, I don't think that they should be viewed as the fairy on top of the S30-series Z Christmas Tree. I think all models should be judged on their own merits, and I certainly don't think that any particular model or market versions are - to quote one Carl Beck - "irrelevant".
 
Originally posted by pmac
You guys should get out more.
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:p
I thought this was a 'Forum'?
Are you trying to stop people posting?
A bit of debate, disagreement and passion is a good thing ( I think ) and its what keeps a forum like this one alive.
 
"the relative importance of S30 series cars, which usually ends up as 'series 1" !
Is all this US thinking just about rarity, to own an exclusive 'series', and inevitably have a higher monetary value placed on ones' car ?
If this is so - it stinks !!!! I've always said that to be a Z owner, one must be a true passionate because there's no money to be made in restoring ones' Z - only, as PeteMac points out the greatness to be discovered on the road !
In the UK, there was a demand for early cars as these are eligible to race in certain historic classes and some others because they are tax exempt, but here in France we don't pay any road tax any more - is that what you were referring to Dave ?
Is it not better to own a later 240 that has profited from factory installed improvements ?

I too own an HLS 30, imported from the States but I too am sick of the Stateside imposing their interpretations on the rest of the Z fraternity - did these improvements come about directly as a result of US feedback - I think not, more probably through design economics, the rally programs and general dealership repair sheets !
 
So, if the Americans regard a series 1 car as the one with the vents in the tailgate. What are the major distinguishing features between a series 2 and a series 3 car ?

I very much agree with Sean here about the later cars being the better ones, hence my choice of 1978 260Z being the final evolution (in the UK before some one says 280Z). This of course, could open up a whole new debate.
 
Originally posted by zedhead260
So, if the Americans regard a series 1 car as the one with the vents in the tailgate. What are the major distinguishing features between a series 2 and a series 3 car ?

Without wishing to piss Albrecht off by adopting the 'series' terminology, it makes answering this question easier. All the info below has been seen on UK cars so it is not just a regurgitation of what the US market changes are.

'Loosely', the spec associated with 'series 2' cars had the early centre console with the hand throttle, the early porsche type gearbox with the separate bellhousing , d centred hubcaps, and the diff was mounted further forward. There are probably other minor items as well. The earliest UK cars ( excluding the 2 J reg ones) had this spec until about the end of 1971.

The major changes that came in that are seen as 'series 3' changes are the later style console, the gearbox with the integral bellhousing, z centred hubcaps, and the diff was mounted further back. I understand that UK cars had this spec until about September 72. ( I have one of these registered in Aug 72)

There are later changes to UK cars that are associated with 'series 4' car which presumably came in late 72, like intermittent wipers, and possibly different emmission style carbs, and a possibly a lower compression engine



Andrew
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It doesn't piss me off Andrew.

As I've been trying to make clear, its the attempt to pin down "Series" type through VIN / Chassis number that I think is the big mistake. Nissan may have quoted chassis numbers when some spec or detail changes took place - but they are clearly not entirely accurate.

With regard to the Japanese market cars ( am I the only one who thinks these are significant / important / interesting? ) some of the "Series" change details do not correspond with the export models. Some of the detail and design changes were made both earlier and later. This turns the whole idea of "Series" changes being concrete on its head. It means it depends on the market and model.

And I agree that the later, more sorted and refined cars can make much better everyday drivers than the earliest of the cars. That's very often true for any product - not just cars. However, the 'market' sets a premium on the earlier cars and this seems to be why many people are interested in the "Series" of any particular car. Very often ( sadly ) its all related to monetary value.

I too have a fascination with the 'early' models ( I enjoy a spot of VIN number Bingo ) but I don't blindly believe that earlier = better. In fact, a kind of Frankenstein's Monster Z - taking a selection of parts / specs and putting them all together on one car - might well be the 'best Z they never built'.
 
No offence meant Albrecht :)

We accept that Nissan made changes throughout the production life of the car, and that may be one minor change, or it may be a whole load of changes in one go, which is presumably where the 'series change' idea came from.

Certainly at the point of changeover there is going to be a blurred line, due to Nissan using up old parts on the 'updated' cars, and due to production scheduling. So in that case you cannot say for sure that anything before/after vin number XXXX will have this or that spec. I would expect there will always be these 'hybrid cars' around the time of a major production change. If you look at the longer term view over say one month's production, before or after a major production change, then there has been what has come to be seen as a 'series' change, BUT as you say it won't be applicable at a particular vin number.

As for how Nissan introduced the changes into particular markets is up to their production scheduling, and the demands of their markets. Some changes obviously would have been not legal in some markets, and so any accepted 'series change' might have been delayed/amended. Perhaps we can say that series changes did happen but took a longer or shorter time to implement in some markets than others? with a few legality/compliance issues chucked in for specific markets.

I'd be interested to see what actual major production changes took place throughout the life of some of the Japanese s30 models for instance, as a comparison to the UK/US market.

The so called series 2 to series 3 change dated in late 1971 seems to fit well with the UK cars I have seen/know about. That of course proves very little overall, and just because it fits here doesn't mean it will in other markets.

Just continuing the discussion....



Andrew
 
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I see a line developing where no-one can say that this or that car is a series...... but that each country and hence market has it's own 'series types' ! These are not seriously different series at all but approximative changeovers due to different manufacturing !

It makes the whole situation so confusing and open to mis-interpretation that I'd prefer that people kept to Nissans' vague VIN number change points and left the idea of 'nailing' the facts down !
It's the same story for what makes a 'standard' Z ? Go on, answer that one if you know it all !
 
So ok then I have a 1972 240Z. The Vin number is HS30011758, where does it fit in series idea and what should I be looking for as far as changes to the car are concerned?

MaximG
 
Originally posted by MaximG
So ok then I have a 1972 240Z. The Vin number is HS30011758, where does it fit in series idea and what should I be looking for as far as changes to the car are concerned?

MaximG
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Hello MaximG:
Hypothetical or not - sometimes you need to know the date of production of your Z and the Series, in order to assure that you are ordering the right Part Numbers. Given your VIN the date of production is about all you need, as it's doesn't appear to be in the change over periods. (we'd have a better idea with the original engine serial number)

As most of the Nissan/DATSUN Technical Service Bulletins specify both DATSUN HLS30 and HS30 as the applicable models.. It's more than likely that the two have pretty much the same items changed Series To Series. We have members in 36 Countries and so far they all report that the Series changes ran pretty much the same, Country to Country and Model to Model for the DATSUN 240-Z's.

If you visit "the Z Car Home Page" at: http://ZHome.com you will see a list of the major upgrades to the Series III DATSUN 240Z's listed in the "HISTORY" Section, under the "Production and Sales" Category... just hit the hyper-link that says: "Production Changes 69-73". Or use the direct hyper-link:
http://zhome.com/History/DesignChanges.htm


New Features For The Series III - 1972 Model Year Included:
Quick Release/Flip Forward Seats.
New Hub Caps {Z in center}
Center Console Redesigned {ashtray to the rear of the shift lever}
Gas Tank Door Latch Eliminated
5 Inch Wide Wheels Made Standard
New Trans. Design {Type "B" two piece case, better shift linkage}
Rear End Moved Rearward 35mm (about 1 1/2 inches, 1.387 to be exact)
E88 Cylinder Head (lower compression but better flow)
60A alternator (although most Factory Service Manuals state 50A for 72)
Auto Seat Belt Retractors (after Jan.72)
Seat Belt Warning Buzzer & Seat Belt Warning Light (after Jan.72)
Horizontal Lines in Rear Window Defroster (after Jan.72)



Give me the Original Engine Serial Number of your Z and I'll give you the aprox. build date. The original engine serial number is stamped on the data tag, that is screwed to the shock tower, under the hood. That data tag has the VIN and Original Engine Serial Number... That VIN should be in the 06 thru 07 build - so it should have reached your shores around 08/09 of 72.


FWIW,
Carl

Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
 
MaximG: Purely as a matter of idle interest what is your engine no as my vin no is quite close to yours at HS30 10899 & engine no 124089580? 1972 240Z reg 12th May 1972.
 
Originally posted by Nigel Brook
MaximG: Purely as a matter of idle interest what is your engine no as my vin no is quite close to yours at HS30 10899 & engine no 124089580? 1972 240Z reg 12th May 1972.
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Hi Nigel:
That engine number and VIN would seem to line up close to an 02 or 03/72 Build Date. Which would make sense if it was registered in May.

regards,
Carl
 
Enguine Number.

Hi Nigel and Carl,

My enguine number is L24110443.

If it is of any interest my wiring loom would appear to be from a late model S30 series car. I use the word series as that is what is stated in the Haynes manual.

All good fun this. ;)

Oh and the date of registration was 20/10/72. So not far out Carl.
 
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Maximg

does your car have intermittent setting on the wipers? How about flattop carbs?

If so it would have the spec associated with one if the first 'series 4' cars.


cheers


Andrew
 
Carl,
My UK ex-73 car had niether of the following that you state for post '72 cars - are you sure that all changes were applicable to all markets ?
Auto Seat Belt Retractors (after Jan.72)
Seat Belt Warning Buzzer & Seat Belt Warning Light (after Jan.72)
Aren't these strictly US changes ?

Abas,
series 4 cars now ???
 
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