Earlier Sean Wrote:
>Carl, I swear that in 15 years of real Z awareness, I've never heard of
>different series numbers for 240s ! If it's been around since almost the
>beginning, it was only in the Staes and I accept it would aid for parts
>re-ordering (where cars were 'mid-year' and likely to be confused).
Hi Sean:
Actually had Nissan or the DATSUN Dealers titled them as 1970 1/2 Models, there would have been less confusion. 1/2 year or mid-year models had been seen before in other makes and that would have avoided having two different models with the same Model Year.
It wasn't only for parts as I mentioned. It was also for resale values and indications of actual age/mileage etc. Most people expect there to be usage differences between Model Years of cars. You would think that a 1970 240-Z would be older than a 1971 240-Z.... but that is not necessarily the case with the Series I cars.
Some of the features on the Series II cars were considered at the time to be beneficial to the owners, others were simply nice to have; but in either case worth extra money. Many people don't like to buy the first year of any model, they prefer to let the owners of the first model years work the bugs out...
Calling the same car a 1970 and/or a 1971 Model... then bringing out a different model and calling it a 1971 Model - -was very confusing to buyers.
Today it can be very confusing to buyer's anywhere in the world they are located. Believe it or not - the IZCC has Members in over 36 Countries and tens of thousands of visitors to our Z Car Home Page per month. Of our 13,500+ Members we have between 1800 and 2200 at any given time on our Z Car Discussion list. So I hear from people all over the world, who are looking in the US for DATSUN 240-Z's to buy (Many of whom are serious Collectors). So Series identification is helpful to all of them.
>As a matter of curiosity, how many parts are likely to be confused
>between series to warrant naming them as different series numbers ?
Interesting question. To an extent it depends on what you want. If you are restoring a Series I car - you want the correct OEM parts for that model and series. So Series identification avoids much of the confusion over what is wanted (between you and your Parts Counter Man for example).
As for how many parts... At this point I'd not hazard a guess. I will say that we have a group of about 12 members, working to document all the differences. The intent is to establish a Concours Standard for Judging - "as it left the Factory". This is an effort that will most likely take at least a year of work by all involved. There are most likely hundreds of part differences between the Series I and II cars. Almost every system and sub-system underwent some minor parts changes. (of course this also happened within the Series as well).
Today many of the original Series I parts have been simply superceded with the newer parts.. As long as the form, fit and function was the same - Nissan considered them direct replacements. So maybe what is a "wrong" part, is a subjective matter.
If Nissan ships you the direct replacement part.. they consider it the "right" part. If you are restoring a Series I car to "as it left the Factory" condition, and you keep getting "direct replacements" but not the "original" part you want - you might consider them the wrong parts.
As for actual parts that do not have a newer direct replacement at this time - I wouldn't believe that there could be more than a few. Most of the Series I parts are NLA now.
>So, the series numbers thing was a US invention
No. As I said, a brief review of Classic or Collectible Cars around the world will reveal the universal use of "Series" identifications for many many Marque's and Models. I seriously doubt it was a US invention.
It was certainly applied here in the US early on - as an adjective to clearly describe two different models, which had the same Model Year designation.
>and by your definition, not needed outside the US where model years
>were sufficient to classify each car (especially in Europe where they are >practically all 'late models as they didn't really start coming over
>in numbers until 1971).
No. I didn't say quite that either. No matter where you are located, if you see a classified ad. for a 1971 DATSUN 240-Z... depending upon if you care or not.. and depending upon if you are looking for a car to buy or not.. knowing which Series it is - simply makes the description of the configuration of the car - more complete and clear.
My comment was that beginning with the 1972 Model Year - because it was no longer possible to sell the same car for two model years.. the Model Year pretty much describes the configuration of the US Cars.
>So, why do we, in Europe need to classify them now ?
I do not believe that anyone in this conversation has ever said that you need to classify them. Only that it's a way of more completely and clearly describing them.
I think that somewhere in the beginning of this discussion - someone ask what the difference was.
>Becasue there have been personally imported many 'series 1'
>cars over the years ? I'm gonna guess and say perhaps 40 at most,
>several of which have been put straight onto circuits (changed dramatically); >others have been personally tailored to their new owners' spec and rassemble >little, their original US spec.
I'd say that "if" you are one of the people around the world looking for a Series I car to restore, and you are shopping around the world - it's good to know that there are more of them, than the more-or-less 10,000 sold/titled as 1970 Model Year cars... there are, more-or-less another 10,000 that were sold/titled as 1971 Model Year cars...
If you are going to modify them for racing - many Historic Race Organizations require cars produced not later than 1970 ... So if you knew there was a 1971 Model Year car available for sale - you wouldn't rule out looking into it.. unless you knew it was a Series II Car... (because you would know that the Series II cars started production in Jan. 71)
If it doesn't matter to you - it doesn't matter. Nonetheless, by now even Steve has learned that there are two different models with a 1971 Model Year designation. He may not buy one and you may not buy one... but knowledge of the Marque is not a bad thing to have.
>Of those imported that have been kept in original US spec form.
>I'm sure that by using this forum, the owners would define what
>parts they need without imposing a series number on the vast majority !
I really do not understand your use of the phrase "imposing a series number"...
Why do you perceive having a knowledge of additional descriptive information, as an "imposition"?
>Is this not just another case of the US market imosing their
>importance over other markets, hmm, Carl ?
Really Sean... now you sound like .... na... I wouldn't hit you that low...
>Handbrakes to you !
Concours de´elegance wins to you !
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
Z Club #260
IZCC #260
ZCAR #260
1969 Series I 240-Z
1971 Series 1 240-Z
1972 240Z
1972 240Z
1973 BRE 240Z
1983 280ZX Turbo