Series 1 240Z's (USA Imports)

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
No-one's gonna accuse me of sitting on the fence ! zbirdy, I'd like to meet you and all the 'newbies', we're all Z fans and I understand you were trying to lighten up the thread, but it's taken a while to have so many varied in-depth discussions going on this site and you waded into one ! Sorry if you felt hurt, but you interrupted one good debate (and where's your m/ship no :) ?

So, going back to series whatevers, why is it just the 240s (the only S30s that have series nos. UNOFFICIALLY attached to them ?
Why don't the following Zs and ZXs have 'em ?

I tell you, it's commercial 'cos the 240s are the only models with a serious resale value and therefore MUST be classified in greater detail !

I prefer my Z to be known as an ex. US 1972 model AND NO MORE ! Do we really need more ?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
DJ? Russ I think is referring to the rear lights and not the rear wing repeaters !
It needed clearing up as we've called the orange under-bumper indicators US spec. , they over there call the clear lenses European turn-lights (but to my memory, no European car ever had these as orginal spec and all the imports I've seen have all come from Japan) !

I agree that if one must have the original UK spec front indicatots, they look better mounted in the front grill but still a shame to disturb that cavernous black mouth !

Ok, I saw Jon Newlyns' S30 at the NEC a while back and it didn't have any front repeaters which he claimed was how the car arrived in the UK ! Anyone want to explain that ? 'Cos it has icky wraparounds and supposing that they later figured that these wouldn't pass our legislation and replaced 'em, why were there no repeater lamps whenearlier markets had them and the UK cars too !

Oh yeah, for the Nissan UK car, BIG PITY THAT NISSAN DIDN'T CONSULT THE Z CLUB BEFORE COMMISSIONING A CAR TO BE BUILT !
 

Zbirdy

Well-Known Forum User
RIGHT !! DJZ60, Youve asked for it.
You interfere with my topic again and I'll Bust your ***
No not really just kidding..
Thanks for your mediation advice, I guess your right, Im gonna head for another subject and see what damage I can do there. Nah better not. (Sorry about my warped sense of humour).

Ahhh, I can feel your warmth and open arms DJ, Thanks a lot mate, now wheres the wife got to.

Don. (Zbirdy, Still cant find my z number).
 

Carl Beck

Well-Known Forum User
Sean Wrote:
>.....snipped...cjjb
>So, going back to series whatevers, why is it just the 240s
>(the only S30s that have series nos. UNOFFICIALLY attached to them ?
>Why don't the following Zs and ZXs have 'em ?

Hi Sean (everyone)
The short answer to your question is: because other than the 1971 Model Year - all other First, Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth Generation Z's can be correctly identified by their Model Year alone.

The long answer is:
I believe that the "Series" identification started within a year after Nissan Motors USA, starting selling what they called their "Late Model 1971 240-Z". They referred to as the "Late Model" because it was indeed late getting to market here in the US. With production beginning in mid Janurary 1971, the "Late Model 1971 240-Z's" didn't arrive at the Dealer's showrooms until around March of 1971.

Most of the US DATSUN Dealers had already started selling the Series I cars, and titling them as 1971 Model Year cars, if they arrived at the Dealerships after Sept. 1, 1970 (because that is when new Models are usually introduced here in the US).

Foreign Car Dealers could legally sell the cars they imported and title them as whatever Model Year they wanted as long as they met the US Safety and Emissions Standards for that year. Because the US Safety and Emissions Standards changed very little between 1970 and 1971, the Series I 240-Z's meet the Standards for both.

Once buyers realized that there was indeed a visible and functional difference between the two different 1971 Models... they wanted to know which was being offered for sale. This happened as soon as both Series I and Series II cars were available in the used car market. At that time the Series II cars sold for slightly more money because of all the improvements made and because they usually had fewer miles of use (or abuse) on them. So the question; "is it a Series I or II?" has been with us here since around late 1971.

As the cars aged and depreciated to as low as $500.00 the buyers in the market didn't really care if it was a Series I or II car if it was advertised as a 1971 Datsun 240-Z. They did start to care when they ordered the wrong part numbers for repairs based on "Model Year"...

As the 240-Z's became collectible, then Collectible Classic's... The Classic Car Buyers and Collectors almost always want to Collect the first model. Not only is it usually the lowest production volume, but it reaches the age limit of 25 years old first! In most cases the first model year is the purest form of the original design. Compliance with the rules and regulations of Historic Race Car clubs and organizations can also be effected.

>Sean continued:
>I tell you, it's commercial 'cos the 240s are the only models with
>a serious resale value and therefore MUST be classified in greater detail !

I'm not sure what you would consider a "serious" resale value. Let's just say that any car over 15 years of age - that is worth twice it's original selling price would be considered to have a "serious" value.

Let's also say that we are talking about a Z that would win most local car shows - and which to the average person would "look brand new". (lets rule out parts cars, cars that "could" be restored, and daily drivers that need much attention just for now). This would be a #3 car per the Old Cars Price Guide. Not a pure Show Car and not a Museum Piece.

In that case all DATSUN 240-Z's, as described above, would have a serious value today. The Series I cars would sell quicker because more people initially look for them. The Series I Z's bring slightly higher values... but only slightly higher as #3 cars. Here in the US this condition of 240-Z (70-73) will usually sell pretty quickly for between $12K and $16K.

A 1975 to 1978 DATSUN 280Z in the same condition will sell for...$8K to $10K now and they are gaining in price as the supply becomes more limited. Given a 1975 280Z was about $5,800.00... it's not two far from being twice it's original price now.

I just helped one 280ZX Turbo owner with the private sale of his ZX... Original Owner, 15K miles on a 1983 Model... all but brand new. Sold for $16K. One 1980 Tenth Anniversary Edition, with 8K miles just changed hands for $18K. (granted that both these would be considered #1 or #2 Cars). #3 280ZX Turbo's are selling for $8K or better now as well. (five years ago they were about $3,500.00)

My point is -it isn't only the Series I 240-Z's that have resale values that have been going up and up today.

Series I and Series II is more about the confusion over which 1971 Model Year Z you have or want.

>I prefer my Z to be known as an ex. US 1972 model AND NO MORE !

It's an "ex-US" model because ??? - you took all the US spec. items off and converted it to a Euro Spec model ????

>Do we really need more ?

Not "IF" it was titled correctly and if a potential buyer fully understands what you mean by "ex-US" model if you offer it for sale.

kind regards,
Carl

Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Carl, I swear that in 15 years of real Z awareness, I've never heard of different series numbers for 240s ! If it's been around since almost the beginning, it was only in the Staes and I accept it would aid for parts re-ordering (where cars were 'mid-year' and likely to be confused). As a matter of curiosity, how many parts are likely to be confused between series to warrant naming them as different series numbers ?

So, the series numbers thing was a US invention and by your definition, not needed outside the US where model years were sufficient to classify each car (especially in Europe where they are practically all 'late models as they didn't really start coming over in numbers until 1971).

So, why do we, in Europe need to classify them now ? Becasue there have been personally imported many 'series 1' cars over the years ? I'm gonna guess and say perhaps 40 at most, several of which have been put straight onto circuits (changed dramatically); others have been personally tailored to their new owners' spec and rassemble little, their original US spec.
Of those imported that have been kept in original US spec form. I'm sure that by using this forum, the owners would define what parts they need without imposing a series number on the vast majority !

Is this not just another case of the US market imosing their importance over other markets, hmm, Carl ?

Handbrakes to you !

ps "that is worth twice it's original selling price would be considered to have a "serious" value" - for me personally, a serious value is where the current selling price is 4 - 5 times the original price ! Look at what 240Zs are reaching in Europe now where the car is more scarce than in the US !

I thought it was simple; my HLS-30 is an ex-US Z 'cos it came from Japan via the US market ! Yes, I have changed certain things (it'll be a surprise) and you would have trouble recognising it as an ex-US model now, despite retaining some US features) but if ever I sold it - there my friend is an option not even to be considered !!!! I would advertise it as an ex-US model as for us over here, that implies that a very limited amout of body (especially underneath) repairs have had to have been undertaken !

Your service monsieur !
 

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
IMHO the only car in the range that might have been classed as a series 1or 2 is the Z31
repeat in my view the 240 is a 240 whether 69,70,71,etc
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
The Z31 started as an angular form, then there was almost the same but with the chrome window strips, then the rounded form before the entry of the Z32 !

In my eyes that makes 3 series ? And the 280 had 2, the 260 came out in 1974/5/6/7/8 with a break for the 2 seater, so that must warrant another series number, no ?

And Burnsie, if that's the best you can do, it just shows you've never owned a 240 !
 

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
baldy
are you saying that you think there are different series in the 240 because if you are IMHO you have lost the plot as I say a 240 is a 240
and why would I want to (no musn't go there)

different series in each model
we will be having a series for each year next
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
No, I'm saying that your example of the Z31 being the only model that might have been classed as a series 1 or 2 is wrong 'cos it was (if you want to start classing 'different' models as series numbers) 3 ! Get your facts right !

Perhaps you and I agree then that each model would better be classed as per each year, eg:
Joe Dough has a 1972 240Z with a rear hatch glass wearing vertical demister stripes ! (example only before anyone shoots me down in flames !)
 

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
no what i,m saying is using the Z Clubs best Z grouping the only model that has an award for a different type is the Z 31 with an award for the 84/86 cars and one for the 87/89 cars
so the third genaration car could be the only one with a series 1/2

I agree that each model would better be classed as per each year, eg:
Joe Dough has a 1972 240Z
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Then the Clubs' awards are not specific enough probably driven by a general lack of cars available to judge !
 

DJZ 60

Well-Known Forum User
Hi, Z birdy, good to hear your gonna fly somewhere else,This technical & biblical information is great & take's a lot of valuable time, each to their own, I personally believe life is short so don't get bogged down in ton's of fact's & figure's. I agree with Steve,or atleast the fact, that in this country (U.K ) a Z is a Z.
& catagorised just by the model type. British car's e.g The Cortina,had a more defined & precise' terming'.............e.g
Mk 1
Mk 2
up to the MK 5.
Simple,non-confusing& logical.
Just a thought. 240Z's have had so much interchanging going on
we could end up from: serie's 1 to serie's 1,ooo,ooo.
Carl is very knowledgeable,& from the sound's of it a good bloke to have a debate with, there's pro's & con's to everyside.
keep up the research & there are member's who find thing's interesting & those that don't................C'est la vie.
 

Carl Beck

Well-Known Forum User
Earlier Sean Wrote:
>Carl, I swear that in 15 years of real Z awareness, I've never heard of
>different series numbers for 240s ! If it's been around since almost the
>beginning, it was only in the Staes and I accept it would aid for parts
>re-ordering (where cars were 'mid-year' and likely to be confused).

Hi Sean:
Actually had Nissan or the DATSUN Dealers titled them as 1970 1/2 Models, there would have been less confusion. 1/2 year or mid-year models had been seen before in other makes and that would have avoided having two different models with the same Model Year.

It wasn't only for parts as I mentioned. It was also for resale values and indications of actual age/mileage etc. Most people expect there to be usage differences between Model Years of cars. You would think that a 1970 240-Z would be older than a 1971 240-Z.... but that is not necessarily the case with the Series I cars.

Some of the features on the Series II cars were considered at the time to be beneficial to the owners, others were simply nice to have; but in either case worth extra money. Many people don't like to buy the first year of any model, they prefer to let the owners of the first model years work the bugs out...

Calling the same car a 1970 and/or a 1971 Model... then bringing out a different model and calling it a 1971 Model - -was very confusing to buyers.

Today it can be very confusing to buyer's anywhere in the world they are located. Believe it or not - the IZCC has Members in over 36 Countries and tens of thousands of visitors to our Z Car Home Page per month. Of our 13,500+ Members we have between 1800 and 2200 at any given time on our Z Car Discussion list. So I hear from people all over the world, who are looking in the US for DATSUN 240-Z's to buy (Many of whom are serious Collectors). So Series identification is helpful to all of them.

>As a matter of curiosity, how many parts are likely to be confused
>between series to warrant naming them as different series numbers ?

Interesting question. To an extent it depends on what you want. If you are restoring a Series I car - you want the correct OEM parts for that model and series. So Series identification avoids much of the confusion over what is wanted (between you and your Parts Counter Man for example).

As for how many parts... At this point I'd not hazard a guess. I will say that we have a group of about 12 members, working to document all the differences. The intent is to establish a Concours Standard for Judging - "as it left the Factory". This is an effort that will most likely take at least a year of work by all involved. There are most likely hundreds of part differences between the Series I and II cars. Almost every system and sub-system underwent some minor parts changes. (of course this also happened within the Series as well).

Today many of the original Series I parts have been simply superceded with the newer parts.. As long as the form, fit and function was the same - Nissan considered them direct replacements. So maybe what is a "wrong" part, is a subjective matter.

If Nissan ships you the direct replacement part.. they consider it the "right" part. If you are restoring a Series I car to "as it left the Factory" condition, and you keep getting "direct replacements" but not the "original" part you want - you might consider them the wrong parts.

As for actual parts that do not have a newer direct replacement at this time - I wouldn't believe that there could be more than a few. Most of the Series I parts are NLA now.

>So, the series numbers thing was a US invention

No. As I said, a brief review of Classic or Collectible Cars around the world will reveal the universal use of "Series" identifications for many many Marque's and Models. I seriously doubt it was a US invention.

It was certainly applied here in the US early on - as an adjective to clearly describe two different models, which had the same Model Year designation.

>and by your definition, not needed outside the US where model years
>were sufficient to classify each car (especially in Europe where they are >practically all 'late models as they didn't really start coming over
>in numbers until 1971).

No. I didn't say quite that either. No matter where you are located, if you see a classified ad. for a 1971 DATSUN 240-Z... depending upon if you care or not.. and depending upon if you are looking for a car to buy or not.. knowing which Series it is - simply makes the description of the configuration of the car - more complete and clear.

My comment was that beginning with the 1972 Model Year - because it was no longer possible to sell the same car for two model years.. the Model Year pretty much describes the configuration of the US Cars.

>So, why do we, in Europe need to classify them now ?

I do not believe that anyone in this conversation has ever said that you need to classify them. Only that it's a way of more completely and clearly describing them.

I think that somewhere in the beginning of this discussion - someone ask what the difference was.

>Becasue there have been personally imported many 'series 1'
>cars over the years ? I'm gonna guess and say perhaps 40 at most,
>several of which have been put straight onto circuits (changed dramatically); >others have been personally tailored to their new owners' spec and rassemble >little, their original US spec.

I'd say that "if" you are one of the people around the world looking for a Series I car to restore, and you are shopping around the world - it's good to know that there are more of them, than the more-or-less 10,000 sold/titled as 1970 Model Year cars... there are, more-or-less another 10,000 that were sold/titled as 1971 Model Year cars...

If you are going to modify them for racing - many Historic Race Organizations require cars produced not later than 1970 ... So if you knew there was a 1971 Model Year car available for sale - you wouldn't rule out looking into it.. unless you knew it was a Series II Car... (because you would know that the Series II cars started production in Jan. 71)

If it doesn't matter to you - it doesn't matter. Nonetheless, by now even Steve has learned that there are two different models with a 1971 Model Year designation. He may not buy one and you may not buy one... but knowledge of the Marque is not a bad thing to have.

>Of those imported that have been kept in original US spec form.
>I'm sure that by using this forum, the owners would define what
>parts they need without imposing a series number on the vast majority !

I really do not understand your use of the phrase "imposing a series number"...
Why do you perceive having a knowledge of additional descriptive information, as an "imposition"?

>Is this not just another case of the US market imosing their
>importance over other markets, hmm, Carl ?

Really Sean... now you sound like .... na... I wouldn't hit you that low...

>Handbrakes to you !

Concours de´elegance wins to you !

FWIW,
Carl


Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
Z Club #260
IZCC #260
ZCAR #260
1969 Series I 240-Z
1971 Series 1 240-Z
1972 240Z
1972 240Z
1973 BRE 240Z
1983 280ZX Turbo
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Carl,

"No. As I said, a brief review of Classic or Collectible Cars around the world will reveal the universal use of "Series" identifications for many many Marque's and Models. I seriously doubt it was a US invention." I meant series numbers attached specifically to Zs, not in general ! If you approach Nissan and say give me xxxx part for my series II 240Z, the first thing they'll ask (after, what is a 240Z) is what year of manufacture ! Next after some searching, they'll ask what month, as parts changed mid-year !

So, a series number won't help any more than the info to hand, via the chassis number, that defines the cars build date !

Therefore a series number is not additional info as it origins from info already to hand ! Therefore, to continue classifying Zs as series xyz is an unnecessary imposition by those who would regulate globally our cars !

I prefer to be more romantic, less clinical about my passion and by saying my Z is a March '72 car sound better (to me) than saying mine's a series II 240Z § Makes it sound like any common saloon car !

Don't hear of Corvettes being known as a series 4 or 5 ! No, it's a '67 Vette etc !

Series numbers - YUK !

A bloody good Bordeaux to you !
 
A

Andytt

I thought that it mattered to the HSCC what so called series 240Z u had, the early ones ie 1970 only were allowed in certain categories, if I remember rightly, I also saw one of the BRITISH classic car mags value the so called series one 240's considerably higher than the later ones...........maybe someone can shed some light on this
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
If they were valued more it's only because before a certain date, they're not eligible for the HSCC etc ! Total rollocks 'cos you can import one from the States (cheaper) and ace that ! Also a VGC later car is worth a whole lot more than an early rustbucket !

The Z world is grey, not just black or white !
 
A

Andytt

Hey Sean there is no need to swear now, I asked if anyone could shed some light on this, I am certain you are wrong regarding the HSCC as I recall to be eligible for the HSCC back in the days you had to own one of the first imports, that is why I think they were more highly valued by the so called British classic car establishment, there is no need to get touchy just because you have a late 240z, :D I am not having a go at you.........you well know that despite owning 2 240Z's I think the late 260Z 2 seater is a better car anyway:p
 

Mr.F

Inactive
Originally there was a date cut-off for HSCC entry which lead to the earliest cars (or , at least, their documentation) being more highly valued. Now the series is open to all '70s roadsports models, and there would be no reason to exclude the 260Z or even a 280ZX (other than their lack of comparitive competitiveness in this series).
 
A

Andytt

Thank U Mike for clearing that one up it was just as I seemed to recall
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
I'm not swearing and I never even thought you were having a go at me - I certainly was not having a go at you - happy that someone picked up again on this subject :)

It's the classic car mags. that I'm having a go at as they are perpetuating another myth (in my view) of different series being worth more or less. The same nonsense I would group in the "Count Albrecht hand built every Z" !!! I'm touchy 'cos the HSCC was (is?) elitist and in my race watching era, the brave guys were those who took on the establishment in Datsuns when all the Brit sportscar racers didn't apreciate 'em. Now they are more widely accepted and there are more racrs out there, the field is even better - I wish I could see a season of races - gotta retire soon I guess !

Mike, in whose opinion are 260 and 280s not competitive in HSCC or other races and why ?
 
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