Bargain on BAT?

[Robotsan]

I've started watching auctions on BAT now to try and get an idea of the value of importing a dry state car.

This one seems very cheap compared to the others: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-datsun-240z-160/

I'm guessing because it's got an L28 engine swap, and is potentially not in the original colour as it was repainted in 1982? Any other reasons?

Seems like a bargain if it comes in under $15k by the end?

I'm starting to think that importing a dry state car is definitely the best value for money option.

Although I'm aware that a 240z is hard to convert to RHD due to the lack of RHD dashes? E.g. the dashes sell for 1.5 - 2k on their own?

But maybe I go for a LHD 260 or 280 and get that converted at a later date.

There's also this auto LHD 260z: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-datsun-260z-42/

I'm expecting this to fetch what, $5 to $8k as its auto and looks to need a full back to the metal respray? Doesn't seem to have spent it's like in Cali or Arizona though so I'm guessing it's rustier than it looks! One of the doors looks particularly bad at the bottom corner.

But if it were a dry state auto car, perhaps a "bit by bit" route could work - e.g. spending £8k on a car, then what £1.5k - £2.5k to get it imported and registered, then what, £4k on a full respray, £2k on a manual swap (200sx boxes work well I hear?), and eventually £3k - £4k on a RHD conversion? That's presuming the engine & other mechanicals are fine obviously! That would appear to add up to about £20k over time, to have a RHD, mint looking 260 or 280.

Thoughts?

 

[johnymd]

BAT car usually go for the top end of their value. If it looks cheap it’s for a reason.

 

[Robotsan]

BAT car usually go for the top end of their value. If it looks cheap it’s for a reason.

Isn't there normally enough in the listing descriptions and photos to explain the price? It seems like the commenters usually sniff out the issues and reasons for the price too, but this one seems popular by all accounts.

I was just wondering if someone with experience of these cars could see what in this listing is holding the price back.

 

[Albrecht]

Seems like a bargain if it comes in under $15k by the end?

Is there a hidden reserve? In any case, plenty of BAT auctions only really get going in the last hour or less. No knowing where any particular car will finish at.

If you're looking for a bargain I don't think an auction that half the world has access to is the best place place to find one. Ideally you'd want to get one before it gets on a platform like BAT, and that's all about having someone in the field who can find one for you as a broker, or you taking a gamble on a private sale.

This particular car might be kept down by the modifications, and looks like it might need a fair bit of rectification/snagging on work that was done when values were lower (ie, it'll be a bit scruffily done). If you're prepared to take that on then you are in a better position to pick up a car that others might shy away from, and you can add value.

But if it were a dry state auto car, perhaps a "bit by bit" route could work - e.g. spending £8k on a car, then what £1.5k - £2.5k to get it imported and registered, then what, £4k on a full respray, £2k on a manual swap (200sx boxes work well I hear?), and eventually £3k - £4k on a RHD conversion? That's presuming the engine & other mechanicals are fine obviously! That would appear to add up to about £20k over time, to have a RHD, mint looking 260 or 280.

Ideally you'd want to be doing the LHD to RHD conversion work before most of the other work, but particularly the paintwork. A "full respray" is an engine out, windows out, interior out job and a proper LHD to RHD conversion involves a lot of metal work to the firewall, cowl area, dash/column support etc. You'll usually end up with a big project that can only be carried out satisfactorily in a certain order and takes a lot of time and money.

Don't know where you're getting a full respray for £4k these days? My last one cost me the thick end of 10k all-in (bare metal, full 'Part Number One' bodyshell job) and I thought I got away quite light considering the hours involved. Materials cost was a big chunk of that too, and so was VAT of course.

Maybe a difference in defining the term "full respray"? Either that or I need an introduction to your chosen body shop...

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

there's been a few cars on BAT go 'cheap' recently, maybe the market is cooling off.

There was also a really nice on on FB at £15k, from a guy who's 'friends' are prolific importers to the UK and europe. it'd be one that'd be £10k more as is once listed.

 

[Robotsan]

Is there a hidden reserve? In any case, plenty of BAT auctions only really get going in the last hour or less. No knowing where any particular car will finish at.

If you're looking for a bargain I don't think an auction that half the world has access to is the best place place to find one. Ideally you'd want to get one before it gets on a platform like BAT, and that's all about having someone in the field who can find one for you as a broker, or you taking a gamble on a private sale.

This particular car might be kept down by the modifications, and looks like it might need a fair bit of rectification/snagging on work that was done when values were lower (ie, it'll be a bit scruffily done). If you're prepared to take that on then you are in a better position to pick up a car that others might shy away from, and you can add value.



Ideally you'd want to be doing the LHD to RHD conversion work before most of the other work, but particularly the paintwork. A "full respray" is an engine out, windows out, interior out job and a proper LHD to RHD conversion involves a lot of metal work to the firewall, cowl area, dash/column support etc. You'll usually end up with a big project that can only be carried out satisfactorily in a certain order and takes a lot of time and money.

Don't know where you're getting a full respray for £4k these days? My last one cost me the thick end of 10k all-in (bare metal, full 'Part Number One' bodyshell job) and I thought I got away quite light considering the hours involved. Materials cost was a big chunk of that too, and so was VAT of course.

Maybe a difference in defining the term "full respray"? Either that or I need an introduction to your chosen body shop...

Thank you, that's all very valuable advice! Particularly about the conversion before paint, makes a lot of sense.

On the conversion subject, I imagine there's just a select number of specialists in the UK that do this? Anyone have a rough approximate of the cost?

Thanks for the comments on this particular car, helps me understand the values. It's past 13k now with under 3 hours to go.

I'm definitely not after a 100% original car, and would consider engine swaps etc as well as gearbox changes, so if that keeps the price down then great.

Appreciate the fact BAT is probably not the absolutely cheapest place, but as someone totally new to the Z scene, I'm lacking those kind of contacts in the states

Haha .. regarding the respray cost, I've never done a full back to the shell respray, only had half a car done before with panels off but not engine out etc. So was basically doubling that and adding a bit as a guess Not surprised it costs 10k ish. Good to know, thanks.

 

[Robotsan]

there's been a few cars on BAT go 'cheap' recently, maybe the market is cooling off.

There was also a really nice on on FB at £15k, from a guy who's 'friends' are prolific importers to the UK and europe. it'd be one that'd be £10k more as is once listed.

Was that the red 260z or 280z? I did see that, looked like it could have been good but there was only 1 photo!

Sorry what did you mean about the £10k more?

I'm guessing it would be good to know one of these importers!

 

[uk66fastback]

BaT auctions state whether there is a reserve or not and you can search for 'no reserve' auctions. Zs do come up on the site with alarming regularity which isn't surprising die to a) their popularity and b) the number of cars in the US.

 

[Robotsan]

That one went for $20k in the end. A few people commented on it going very cheaply and they couldn't work out why!

 

[richiep]

That one went for $20k in the end. A few people commented on it going very cheaply and they couldn't work out why!

Entirely possible reality is starting to return; the already existent classic car bubble was inflated disproportionately by COVID. Maybe, with lockdowns lifting, vaccination programs in full swing, etc., the madness is starting to subside as people can actually get out and do other stuff rather than spend all their time and money on cars?

 

[richiep]

Is there a hidden reserve? In any case, plenty of BAT auctions only really get going in the last hour or less. No knowing where any particular car will finish at.

If you're looking for a bargain I don't think an auction that half the world has access to is the best place place to find one. Ideally you'd want to get one before it gets on a platform like BAT, and that's all about having someone in the field who can find one for you as a broker, or you taking a gamble on a private sale.

This particular car might be kept down by the modifications, and looks like it might need a fair bit of rectification/snagging on work that was done when values were lower (ie, it'll be a bit scruffily done). If you're prepared to take that on then you are in a better position to pick up a car that others might shy away from, and you can add value.



Ideally you'd want to be doing the LHD to RHD conversion work before most of the other work, but particularly the paintwork. A "full respray" is an engine out, windows out, interior out job and a proper LHD to RHD conversion involves a lot of metal work to the firewall, cowl area, dash/column support etc. You'll usually end up with a big project that can only be carried out satisfactorily in a certain order and takes a lot of time and money.

Don't know where you're getting a full respray for £4k these days? My last one cost me the thick end of 10k all-in (bare metal, full 'Part Number One' bodyshell job) and I thought I got away quite light considering the hours involved. Materials cost was a big chunk of that too, and so was VAT of course.

Maybe a difference in defining the term "full respray"? Either that or I need an introduction to your chosen body shop...

Alan makes some excellent points here. A RHD swap needs to be done when the car is stripped down for respray and any other metalwork that inevitably is exposed at that point. It requires significant, careful removals, modifications, and additions to execute properly, especially if you want an outcome that looks close to factory. For a specialist to do it, expect £££££. If you want to see the work involved, have a look at my "Project Dixie" thread on my ex-California 240Z that I am rebuilding into a JDM Fairlady Z-style vehicle. Swap stuff starts on page 3:
https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/the-project-dixie-thread.26190/page-3


Not sure about 2k for a 200sx swap either. An S13/S14/S14a gearbox can be had for between 3-500 quid, sometimes less if you are lucky (the S14a box in my red Z cost £165, and the two others I have all cost sub-300). Cheap 4-speed for bellhousing 200 quid, bellhousing machining, maybe 100. Propshaft shortening £50, speedo drive cog £30, gearbox crossmember mod £??, etc. Not 2k IMO. I seem to recall back in the day Pmac and Skiddell used to do 200sx swap kits for £8-900 with everything ready to bolt on. Will be more now due to the boxes increasing in price, but still. Of course, you could make it to 2k if you bought some all singing and dancing clutch and flywheel combo for £££.

If its a swap to a Z manual rather than a 200sx, then quite a bit less as there's no fab or machining involved.

 

[Robotsan]

Entirely possible reality is starting to return; the already existent classic car bubble was inflated disproportionately by COVID. Maybe, with lockdowns lifting, vaccination programs in full swing, etc., the madness is starting to subside as people can actually get out and do other stuff rather than spend all their time and money on cars?

Yes quite possibly the case. Good, it's about time if so. Although I've not seen any sign of the numbers in the E46 M3 market getting less crazy, and that's the only used car I know the price of inside out.

 

[Robotsan]

Alan makes some excellent points here. A RHD swap needs to be done when the car is stripped down for respray and any other metalwork that inevitably is exposed at that point. It requires significant, careful removals, modifications, and additions to execute properly, especially if you want an outcome that looks close to factory. For a specialist to do it, expect £££££. If you want to see the work involved, have a look at my "Project Dixie" thread on my ex-California 240Z that I am rebuilding into a JDM Fairlady Z-style vehicle. Swap stuff starts on page 3:
https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/the-project-dixie-thread.26190/page-3


Not sure about 2k for a 200sx swap either. An S13/S14/S14a gearbox can be had for between 3-500 quid, sometimes less if you are lucky (the S14a box in my red Z cost £165, and the two others I have all cost sub-300). Cheap 4-speed for bellhousing 200 quid, bellhousing machining, maybe 100. Propshaft shortening £50, speedo drive cog £30, gearbox crossmember mod £??, etc. Not 2k IMO. I seem to recall back in the day Pmac and Skiddell used to do 200sx swap kits for £8-900 with everything ready to bolt on. Will be more now due to the boxes increasing in price, but still. Of course, you could make it to 2k if you bought some all singing and dancing clutch and flywheel combo for £££.

If its a swap to a Z manual rather than a 200sx, then quite a bit less as there's no fab or machining involved.

Thanks Rich, I'll have a read of that thread. So who are the specialists in the UK? I know of Fourways, but are there more that are trusted to do this work, particularly are there any in the North West?

Those prices I gave were literally plucked from thin air, pure guesswork just so I could find out from you guys the real costs! Less than 2k for the 200sx swap is good news.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

................. are there more that are trusted to do this work, particularly are there any in the North West?

The previous owner of my car used this guy:

http://www.kssnorthltd.co.uk/

 

[richiep]

The principal specialists are Fourways, followed by Z Farm in Thirsk, North Yorkshire. Andy Plant, who makes an extensive range of repair and RHD swap panels as the APS brand, is based out of the Z Farm, working with its proprietor Duncan Pearcey.

If I was recommending a third party for fabrication like a RHD swap in the NW, I’d say TLJ Welding in Macc. They would not be cheap, but I’ve used them for a few bits and they are highly competent. Last time I went in, they had a Testarossa shell in for a full rust repair session. I only recognised what it was from the profile of the rear panel- much of the rest was devoid of exterior panels!

Ultimately, it’s about knowing and trusting fabricators and body shops/garages that can handle whatever you have. Trevor Farrington is another well known resto business in Cheshire. Recommended and charging Cheshire prices as one could expect! For general garage stuff, servicing, etc., longtime Zedder and friend Mark Warburton here in Macc is a good, economical bet. He’s been around Zs since the 80s/90s, and is where I go to do any work on my cars that need a lift! Zs aren’t hard to work on though, so any competent, trustworthy mechanic should be able to handle the basic stuff.

Of course, I could do a lot of the above stuff - but not until I sack my day job off in a few years time and turn the hobby professional!

 

[SeanDezart]

Entirely possible reality is starting to return; the already existent classic car bubble was inflated disproportionately by COVID. Maybe, with lockdowns lifting, vaccination programs in full swing, etc., the madness is starting to subside as people can actually get out and do other stuff rather than spend all their time and money on cars?

I think not - prices have risen and will continue to do so despite the 'unlimited supply'. There is MUCH more awareness now of these cars attracting new owners of all ages, particulary the 'cash-rich' under '30s and they've never known the Datsun-banger days - to them, a Z is a cult-car that ticks all the boxes.

 

[JK240]

The previous owner of my car used this guy:

http://www.kssnorthltd.co.uk/

And I'd recommend Kevin to anybody..!

JK

 

[richiep]

I think not - prices have risen and will continue to do so despite the 'unlimited supply'. There is MUCH more awareness now of these cars attracting new owners of all ages, particulary the 'cash-rich' under '30s and they've never known the Datsun-banger days - to them, a Z is a cult-car that ticks all the boxes.

I’m talking big picture, not just Zs. The classic market overall went mad last year as people bought things to keep them occupied. That is easing and demand will fall. The old days of cheap Zs are long gone, but overall there is likely to be a macro-level weakening of the willingness to spend out of boredom effectively.

I could contextualise this within the overall international market for consumer goods, luxury items, experiences, etc., (I’ve been a consumer analyst for two decades) - but I’m not going to! I think buyers will get much more choosy and this will effect selling prices. Perpetual value growth in any market is a fantasy.

 

[Woody928]

Not sure about 2k for a 200sx swap either. An S13/S14/S14a gearbox can be had for between 3-500 quid, sometimes less if you are lucky (the S14a box in my red Z cost £165, and the two others I have all cost sub-300). Cheap 4-speed for bellhousing 200 quid, bellhousing machining, maybe 100. Propshaft shortening £50, speedo drive cog £30, gearbox crossmember mod £??, etc. Not 2k IMO. I seem to recall back in the day Pmac and Skiddell used to do 200sx swap kits for £8-900 with everything ready to bolt on. Will be more now due to the boxes increasing in price, but still. Of course, you could make it to 2k if you bought some all singing and dancing clutch and flywheel combo for £££.

If its a swap to a Z manual rather than a 200sx, then quite a bit less as there's no fab or machining involved.

It's worth mentioning that the price of these gearboxes just seems to be going up and up, sadly the days where you paid the prices that you did Richie are well gone unless you're super lucky... It looks like you're paying at least £500 for a total unknown, most of these would also benefit from a rebuild now even if a drifter hasn't abused the crap out of it. I've just spent in excess of £600 with Nissan on new OEM parts to fully rebuild one of my spare boxes to go in the car with my new engine.

Honestly I'd be tempted to look more seriously into the CD009 swap now when spending more, at least you can buy the gearbox brand new from Nissan still and its way stronger from my limited understanding.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

It's worth mentioning that the price of these gearboxes just seems to be going up and up, sadly the days where you paid the prices that you did Richie are well gone unless you're super lucky... It looks like you're paying at least £500 for a total unknown, most of these would also benefit from a rebuild now even if a drifter hasn't abused the crap out of it. I've just spent in excess of £600 with Nissan on new OEM parts to fully rebuild one of my spare boxes to go in the car with my new engine.

Honestly I'd be tempted to look more seriously into the CD009 swap now when spending more, at least you can buy the gearbox brand new from Nissan still and its way stronger from my limited understanding.

They're larger than Jupiter though. Weigh more than a black hole.