Franklin Mint 1970 Datsun 240Z

[chrisvega]

Yes. Weird way to take part in an auction. Endlessly talk-up the seller's previous auctions, then telegraph your intentions to 'win' this auction at almost any cost whilst also talking it up.

That's not a strategy that makes sense in any other auction format I'm aware of. Normally a serious buyer keeps it on the down-low and - if he's sensible - has a figure in mind (set by fully understanding the item he's buying as well as the current state of the market) which he will not exceed. That's not the case here, despite the buyer telling all and sundry that he's a 'car collector' and just sold a "consignment" (ugh...) of other miscellaneous cars that he appears to have fallen out of love with. He's a relative newbie to the early Z world, judging by an example of one of his other Zs he doesn't have very good taste [yet] and the car he has just bought would lose points in any concours worth its salt because of better understanding of what 'factory original' really means, and a changed philosophy between now and when it was originally restored.

There will be a lot of hoo-ha about this sale price, but it may have as much negative effect as positive.

OK Mr.T, you have sparked my cynical side too, was trying to keep it objective, but it's Friday, I'm stuck inside as it's raining and leopards and all that !

I have to agree with Jason regarding 'ego' being the main driver with that little clique of BAT...ters.I'm the big man around here type of mentality, no-one is going to outbid me, look how big my wallet (or dick) is . Is it a peculiar American culture thing ?

No-one mentions how lucky the seller was in near enough stealing the car from an uninformed 'estate seller' before flipping it on BAT for a massive profit. Maybe he is the true hero of this play ? They all whoop and holler about how much Mr.Big has paid, as if paying more for a car is some kind of glory ? Bizarre ! A kind of reverse bargain theory.

The seller brags on about how priviledged the BAT audience are in that he has deigned to sell the car on there and he is doing them all a massive favour allowing them to bid - having turned down huge offers previously off the auction. The little crowd of sycophants egg on the gladiators, soothing their ego's along the way.

' judging by an example of one of his other Zs he doesn't have very good taste [yet] '
You are assuming good taste can be acquired
Which car is that then ?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

OK Mr.T, you have sparked my cynical side too, was trying to keep it objective, but it's Friday, I'm stuck inside as it's raining and leopards and all that !

I have to agree with Jason regarding 'ego' being the main driver with that little clique of BAT...ters.I'm the big man around here type of mentality, no-one is going to outbid me, look how big my wallet (or dick) is . Is it a peculiar American culture thing ?

No-one mentions how lucky the seller was in near enough stealing the car from an uninformed 'estate seller' before flipping it on BAT for a massive profit. Maybe he is the true hero of this play ? They all whoop and holler about how much Mr.Big has paid, as if paying more for a car is some kind of glory ? Bizarre ! A kind of reverse bargain theory.

The seller brags on about how priviledged the BAT audience are in that he has deigned to sell the car on there and he is doing them all a massive favour allowing them to bid - having turned down huge offers previously off the auction. The little crowd of sycophants egg on the gladiators, soothing their ego's along the way.

' judging by an example of one of his other Zs he doesn't have very good taste [yet] '
You are assuming good taste can be acquired
Which car is that then ?

Also BAT remove any type of decent conversation that happens. Given the sellers ideas about his own custom cars, he's got zero taste. The buyer has a car on classic Z car forum, which proves that money doesn't buy taste also

I just hope the BAT types stay away from the Classic z car forum. Its a fairly sensible place at the minute.

 

[Albrecht]

"judging by an example of one of his other Zs he doesn't have very good taste [yet]"

You are assuming good taste can be acquired
Which car is that then ?

 

[chrisvega]

When there is a picture of the owner polishing his pride and joy, it seems a bit mean to criticise his taste, somehow makes it a bit more personal than if just a car pic. Wonder which one is Larry ? The yellow sneakers (sic) or yellow polishing cloth ?

Either way, there can be no excuses for the (almost) colour coded sunroof, that's a first.... but we can all still see it

 

[Albrecht]

When there is a picture of the owner polishing his pride and joy, it seems a bit mean to criticise his taste, somehow makes it a bit more personal than if just a car pic.

Judging by his posted comments on this - and other - auctions, I wouldn't worry about hurting his feelings. He can give as good as he gets, and he's not shy in giving it.

The red car is a classic example of somebody building a custom version of one of these cars but not quite knowing what's what. It's the way you see certain people behaving at an 'all you can eat' buffet.

Mini grille in a Grande style nose? Check.
Overfenders colour-coded, badly positioned (aren't they on the wrong sides?) and using welting? Check.
Colour-coded folding fabric sunroof? Check.
Colour-coded Grande style nose? Check.
Too-tall wheels (Image?!) with low profile tyres? Check.
Remove rubber trims on Deluxe bumpers, leaving holes which you fill with bumper bolts for that 'ship's rivets' look? Check.
Home made (hey - unique!) 'Z' bonnet emblem? Check.
Haven't got the right screws for your headlamp covers? Try self-tapping wood screws. Check.

Show car!

Might well have been built by this show:

 

[chrisvega]

Hey, did you pinch that ship's rivet quote from Sean ?
Must be a cool thing to do in Georgia, now where did I put those 'nam bumpers

 

[SeanDezart]

Remove rubber trims on Deluxe bumpers, leaving holes which you fill with bumper bolts for that 'ship's rivets' look? Check.

I'm loving this - do you have any interior shots please ?

"In God we trust !"

So read : In Georgia: Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp signs fetal heartbeat bill, one of most restrictive abortion laws in nation.

 

[Albrecht]

...do you have any interior shots please ?

 

[Albrecht]

....something along those lines anyway.

 

[dotMorse]

Do people see this as a blip in the 240z radar? Or the signalling of prices on their way up again? I know that some cars have a price point that is dictated by the last sale price, but this is generally with the super rare cars.

Just to clarify, not bothered either way, as I bought mine to drive and enjoy, not to make money on (but its always nice to know your garage is worth a little more )

 

[dotMorse]

View attachment 33555

Strangely I don't find that horrible...Not sure about my taste levels anymore now. Is that a Chysler?

 

[chrisvega]

....something along those lines anyway.

Plush
Makes a tart's boudoir seem restrained.

 

[SeanDezart]

Is that a Chysler?

A 280ZX on steriods ? But Maserati Bi-turbos had that style too....
https://www.classicargarage.fr/archives/maserati-422-bi-turbo-1991

 

[SeanDezart]

......not bothered either way, as I bought mine to drive and enjoy.....

Exactly - you now already have one and that's MY point - now we have one, that prices raise atronomically is something positive - Alan hasn't explained why...........yet..... he feels this to be negative !

Next stage will have this Franklin car go in for a complet nut and bolt restoration job to be of concours standard.

 

[chrisvega]

Prices have been on a very strong upward curve in the States for the last 12 months.
This particular sale should be seen as a 'one off' based on the car's unique story/USP which had huge appeal for some over there.

However, you can already see comments on the BAT thread and Facebook with people automatically assuming their car is now worth XYZ more.
Hence anyone who tried to make an objective or realistic comment that didn't fit the narrative for those with a vested interest were quickly dismissed.

I would say prices for mid/high end HLS30U cars in the States are already at parity with Europe so the number of these cars being imported will reduce.

Price is dictated by supply and demand, all the extra publicity that this sale may generate may equate to more interest, more buyers and hence higher prices, who knows ? Answers to crystalball.com

 

[Albrecht]

Do people see this as a blip in the 240z radar? Or the signalling of prices on their way up again? I know that some cars have a price point that is dictated by the last sale price, but this is generally with the super rare cars.

To be serious for a moment (normal service will be resumed shortly) I think it's a big anomaly which doesn't tell us much about the scene in general. This particular car's renown amongst enthusiasts in the USA is a key factor - being one of the first documented and publicised 'full restorations' in that scene - with the car winning a 'Gold Medallion' Z concours and being chosen for display/publicity when Yutaka Katayama was inducted into the USA's 'Automotive Hall of Fame' in 1998, and then being used as reference for American diecast company Franklin Mint when they made a model 240Z.

S30-series Z prices - especially those for early cars - have been on the rise for the last few years anyway. This could in some respects be seen as a market 'correction' (as they've been somewhat undervalued relative to other marques/models) but there's still a lot of S30-series Z cars left extant and the market correction may be slowed down or reversed somewhat by oversupply. It's the earliest (so, 1969 and very early 1970) HLS30U cars that are commanding the bigger figures now. 1972/'73 cars much less so, and '73 to '78 cars - despite demand raising prices for the best - are still way behind.

The two 'Vintage Z Program' (Nissan USA-commissioned full restoration 'new' cars) 240Zs which 'sold' for $100,000+ each hammer prices in a recent high profile Japanese auction are now reportedly the subject of a legal dispute between the 'buyer' and the auction company. He's not happy with them. This is the danger when so-called car collectors who usually bid on well understood/documented cars with the advice of marque experts start dabbling in stuff that they don't have appropriate knowledge of, or people to give them good advice on. The buyer is probably suffering from buyer's remorse, having not fully understood what it was he was bidding on. That probably won't happen with this 'Franklin Mint' car because its got some of the marque 'experts' endorsing it and reassuring everyone about it. They - of course - have a somewhat vested interest...

Not forgetting that this is all small potatoes considering what some of the Japanese market models have been changing hands for. A Japanese market car will still command more than a like-for-like production date and condition HLS30U, with the early 432 in particular demand. But it's the 432-R which knocks them all into a cocked hat in a standard factory production model vs standard factory production model valuations.

Cost of *full* restoration and cost/supply of the necessary factory parts is the big obstacle, of course. We are still in a negative equity situation for most cars.

 

[chrisvega]

Tom, you did a good days work when you bought your 240Z.
I wouldn't worry about prices too much

 

[chrisvega]

This thread done for now or if not temporary diversion ?
Alan, do you know any more of the story on the 'Vintage Z' auction cars in Japan.
Were they mis-represented by the auction house/seller ?
Did he not look at the cars properly ?
How come he is not happy ?
Does he have a case in Japanese law or is he just trying it on having made a bad decision ?

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Values - if a car is modified does the age make a lot of difference to the value?

 

[Albrecht]

...that prices raise atronomically is something positive - Alan hasn't explained why...........yet..... he feels this to be negative !

As I've said elsewhere, classic car prices require slow cooking for best flavour. Blitzing the dish in a microwave is not the way to do it.

Can't you see the potential problems a sudden, quantum jump in expected 'values' might bring? Sure it might have the spin-off effect to persuade suppliers to produce/reproduce long unavailable parts, but for those of us who have had the cars for a long time it can be a problem when the 'asset' suddenly increases in value.

There's also the question of your average S30-series Z owner and the way they have perceived their cars up until now. 100% factory stock cars - ie the ones which would be expected to fetch the most - are almost unicorn rare. Would a sudden jump in values cause a change in how cars are personalised/modified/owned/treated? Will an influx of 'new' owners change the dynamic in a bad way? Where is it all going?

Sean you're usually quite evangelical about attracting 'new' owners and encouraging prices to go up, but I worry about you over-hyping it all. The cars should speak for themselves and prospective owners need gentle encouragement to discover and understand the cars for themselves, not some kind of "BUY BUY BUY" pressure bubble.