Franklin Mint 1970 Datsun 240Z

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Alan, do you know any more of the story on the 'Vintage Z' auction cars in Japan.
Were they mis-represented by the auction house/seller ?
Did he not look at the cars properly ?
How come he is not happy ?
Does he have a case in Japanese law or is he just trying it on having made a bad decision ?

It's all hearsay at the moment, but I'm told he wasn't happy with the true condition of the cars once they were cleaned up (they were presented in 'barn find' dirt and dust, having sat in a warehouse for some years) and - I'm guessing - they will probably be in need of the sort of attention any long unused car requires. I'm also reading between the lines and guessing that he's realised the VZ cars were not necessarily 100-point factory correct 'concours' type restorations, and often were a bit of a mish mash of whatever parts were available at the time. One friend in Japan suggested that the buyer misunderstood the "factory restored" hype around them, believing that they were 'new' Nissan cars turned out by Nissan in Japan (but I find it hard to believe anyone could be that uninformed).

I've seen two other VZ cars in Japan and they were lovely, but both owners had spent a lot of time and money changing stuff that they were not happy with.

This is part of my worry. Over-hyping the cars to people who have until now not been interested risks disappointments and bail-outs. It also doesn't help new - young! - enthusiasts get on the S30-series Z ladder in the way that I and many of my peers were able to.
 
This is one isn't it?
WO42SIg.jpg


Hopefully not long till there's a hommage to this, well a tip of the hat towards it, in the UK.
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
It's all hearsay at the moment, but I'm told he wasn't happy with the true condition of the cars once they were cleaned up (they were presented in 'barn find' dirt and dust, having sat in a warehouse for some years) and - I'm guessing - they will probably be in need of the sort of attention any long unused car requires. I'm also reading between the lines and guessing that he's realised the VZ cars were not necessarily 100-point factory correct 'concours' type restorations, and often were a bit of a mish mash of whatever parts were available at the time. One friend in Japan suggested that the buyer misunderstood the "factory restored" hype around them, believing that they were 'new' Nissan cars turned out by Nissan in Japan (but I find it hard to believe anyone could be that uninformed).

I've seen two other VZ cars in Japan and they were lovely, but both owners had spent a lot of time and money changing stuff that they were not happy with.

This is part of my worry. Over-hyping the cars to people who have until now not been interested risks disappointments and bail-outs. It also doesn't help new - young! - enthusiasts get on the S30-series Z ladder in the way that I and many of my peers were able to.

Hmmmm, sounds like he should have done his homework first and good point about the investor types with no previous affinity or knowledge of the model becoming attracted by the hype and financial talk.

The 280Z is still within budget for more people and many youngsters choose this option as the most cost effective way to get on the S30Z ladder, having said that prices on those have firmed up considerably and the days of the truly cheap Z are now over.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Values - if a car is modified does the age make a lot of difference to the value?

Supposedly if it is a "series 1 or 1 1/2 as I'm now reading in places....personnaly, stock or modified, I'd judge a car and its' value on condition, good taste mods and well executed....and this 'famous' car aside, I believe most cars worldwide ARE judged upon their condition and not whether stock or pre-late '71 !
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
Supposedly if it is a "series 1 or 1 1/2 as I'm now reading in places....personnaly, stock or modified, I'd judge a car and its' value on condition, good taste mods and well executed....and this 'famous' car aside, I believe most cars worldwide ARE judged upon their condition and not whether stock or pre-late '71 !

'So called' Series 1 1/2 as well now?
Well they are the better car :coolgleam:
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
It also doesn't help new - young! - enthusiasts get on the S30-series Z ladder in the way that I and many of my peers were able to.

That is the only good reason for prices to stay 'modest' but over here, young guys are spedning more money to buy a Z and then do things than I ever had at their age.....maybe Z prices are just inflation-proof ?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
S30-series Z prices - especially those for early cars - have been on the rise for the last few years anyway. This could in some respects be seen as a market 'correction' (as they've been somewhat undervalued relative to other marques/models) but there's still a lot of S30-series Z cars left extant and the market correction may be slowed down or reversed somewhat by oversupply.

Why specify 'Z cars' when you mention S30-series ?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
As I've said elsewhere, classic car prices require slow cooking for best flavour. Blitzing the dish in a microwave is not the way to do it.

Can't you see the potential problems a sudden, quantum jump in expected 'values' might bring? Sure it might have the spin-off effect to persuade suppliers to produce/reproduce long unavailable parts, but for those of us who have had the cars for a long time it can be a problem when the 'asset' suddenly increases in value.

There's also the question of your average S30-series Z owner and the way they have perceived their cars up until now. 100% factory stock cars - ie the ones which would be expected to fetch the most - are almost unicorn rare. Would a sudden jump in values cause a change in how cars are personalised/modified/owned/treated? Will an influx of 'new' owners change the dynamic in a bad way? Where is it all going?

Sean you're usually quite evangelical about attracting 'new' owners and encouraging prices to go up, but I worry about you over-hyping it all. The cars should speak for themselves and prospective owners need gentle encouragement to discover and understand the cars for themselves, not some kind of "BUY BUY BUY" pressure bubble.

I'm not over-hyping it - I was only recently chased down for saying I don't like the drive an early (and therefore Yank-market) Z gives so I wouldn't have bought this even at $10k.

So, my increases in value - I have its' value estimated and insure it. I'll certainly have it estimated every two years but I'll be driving it during that period. If the car becomes a theft target, it might get nicked but then on the road it might get hit from some old lady in the nose and a chassis leg bent amongst other things....worring about what might happen will leave us like E-Type owners -afraid to go out - agrophobia rules !

So, maybe there will be a change is the way people personalise, modify and whatnot their cars - and ? Change is not bad and fear of it is worse - the world turns and moves on and I'm certainly not worried about 'where it might all go' ! What seems more and more assured is that our Zs will now comfortably outlast us whereas when they were two a penny, people dumped or broke them. A valuable and/or appreciating asset is one that people invest (not just money) in to keep it nice and clean.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Personally, I'd like to see every Z go for big money.

I'm not hyping up THIS car, I want to see ALL Zs with a properly recognised value - they seem to be a victim of their sales success "nah, not worth that, can pick up a cheap one - there's loads around" !
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
"The cars should speak for themselves and prospective owners need gentle encouragement to discover and understand the cars for themselves, not some kind of "BUY BUY BUY" pressure bubble."

THAT's what clubs are for and forums such as this so people can come on here and ask questions, even about a specific car BEFORE buying. No-one is suggesting buy now or miss the boat to pressurise would-be owners to 'take the risk'. Let those prospective owners do a little homework, encourage them to do so - I've always advocated that - isn't that how you started too - reading up on them before scratching the bottom of your pockets to realise the dream ?
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
You see? The two statements are conflicting.

Agreed that our two views are conflicting...

Personally, I'd like to see every Z go for big money......MEANING a rusty 240Z selling for £5000 and not £500 and a very good condition fast-road selling for £40000 and not £20k.

NOT meaning a pile of sheight selling for £20k.

Better cars' values are always held back by the bottom end condition* and every Z is held back by the value of 240Zs.......hence it is the bottom end of the 240Z scale that rules the market price today.

*people still think it cheaper to buy a bargain garden shed and 'do it up' than a good running car.....this should increase the lower end of the market (supply and demand) but it doesn't.....why not ?
 
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