Drag racing rules and classing

[zedhead260]

And so I'm saying that perhaps the rules need to be looked at soon ! And why, is one class is revised, it automatically means that all classes must be revised ?

One would assume that if you created a lightweight class for S30 class 1, then you would have to do it across the board. Having just 1 lightweight class for all models would hardly be "fair" would it. Sounds to me the only car you are interested in penalising is Steve Kiddell's.

Why can't owners present a weighing slip for their cars before each run ? Why the emphasis on the orgainisers to 'police' it ? Self-responsibility !!!

Well in an ideal world that would be nice, but the reality is just an open door for abuse. By making entrants produce a weight slip just adds an obstruction in getting people to the track - come on, how many people do you think actually take their car to be weighed ? Red tape is the last thing we need, we struggle for entrants as it is, that is why we have tried to keep things as simple as possible.

I'm saying that me and my car would be a lot faster than most and it wouldn't be fair to most runners - sure they'll win more points than me (attendance/reaction times etc) but I still feel that for the hall of fame, the S30 class should be split more fairly !

The Hall of Fame isn't soley for S30, I think you mean the Top 10 for class 1. As mentioned before, any class could be split for the start of a new season - but we would need enough attendees first to justify it.

talking about the hall of fame which will gradually push out older, fast cars as the current racers get lighter or more power !

The Hall of Fame currently has 55 entries; it will be capped at 100. If we get a huge rush of 11 second hybrids and 13 second Z32TT's which pushes every 14 second S30 out, all we have to do is extend the capping limit to 150 cars - all this new data is being archived. However, I think it will be many many years before we really need to worry about that one.

Shame not to see the quickest std 260Z or 240Z

Does anyone truly own a "stock" S30 ??

 

[SeanDezart]

Ok, I hear you. But none of the opinions here answer (imo), my original point about the very enhancing effect of lightening a Z !

That said, one of the simplest ways a standard car would go quicker is to be lighter.

You talk about the lack of standard cars, surely the "efficiency of a variety of modifications and tuning approaches" would need to be more inovative to reduce times on a standard car rather than 'just bolt on' carbs (TBs for those who like and other performance goodies ?

There isn't currently any interest for a standard car to compete against the more powerful cars - chicken and egg here - no class, no cars, no cars, no class !

Yes, a std car can win the challenge on points but what really sticks is a great time in the hall of fame - look at all the interest generated over beating Steve Adams long-held record !

I think the hall of fame should be enlarged to incorporate ALL the std Zs, ZXs, even if those classes are not currently being run in this years' challenge ! And that before next years' challenge, a review be made to look at running more std classes - after all, if the challenge is a success over all the motorsport restrictions now, you will attract more std cars tu run (but only if they have a chance of lasting glory !

Yeah, I'm an armchair observer (I won't say critic 'cos I'm not criticising all the organisation and planning so far) and I'll always be until you come over here and whup our arses or we re-invade and 'try' to whup yours !

 

[SeanDezart]

One would assume that if you created a lightweight class for S30 class 1, then you would have to do it across the board. Having just 1 lightweight class for all models would hardly be "fair" would it. Sounds to me the only car you are interested in penalising is Steve Kiddell's.

I admire Steve enormously what his concept car and all motorsport is about exploiting the existing rules to the full, firbe-glass panels and plexi-glass windows have been around for ages, so I don't think it's fair to say I'm pointing the finger at one person ! Under currect rules, the 4ways racer Z or Big Sam would run in Class 1 S30 (on road legal 'semi-slicks' .............

The Hall of Fame isn't soley for S30, I think you mean the Top 10 for class 1. As mentioned before, any class could be split for the start of a new season - but we would need enough attendees first to justify it.

Yeah, that's what I mean !

Does anyone truly own a "stock" S30 ??

Yeah, I understand but let's assume that Wolfies and an MSA exhaust aren't changing dramatically the std character/performance of the car !

 

[Mr.F]

no class, no cars, no cars, no class !

We have had a class for "standard" Zs ever since the inception of the Drag Challenge over 20 years ago - and virtually no cars have competed in it for the last ten years. What does this say about changing the system? The sport is mostly about performance enhancement, but the new system has at last opened a way for stock or virtually stock cars to have an impact!

More classes would dilute participation and return us to the situation where people were winning prizes for being the only competitor in their specialised class.

 

[SeanDezart]

We have had a class for "standard" Zs ever since the inception of the Drag Challenge over 20 years ago - and virtually no cars have competed in it for the last ten years. What does this say about changing the system? The sport is mostly about performance enhancement, but the new system has at last opened a way for stock or virtually stock cars to have an impact!

Granted.

More classes would dilute participation and return us to the situation where people were winning prizes for being the only competitor in their specialised class.

.......and for turning up of course !

 

[zedhead260]

Ok, I hear you. But none of the opinions here answer (imo), my original point about the very enhancing effect of lightening a Z !

The rules don't actually state the words "weight reduction", but it does say "anything goes as long as the original series engine, N/A, remains the core of the project" - if rules don't state that you can't do something, then one must assume that you can.

That said, one of the simplest ways a standard car would go quicker is to be lighter.

But then it isn't standard

You talk about the lack of standard cars, surely the "efficiency of a variety of modifications and tuning approaches" would need to be more inovative to reduce times on a standard car rather than 'just bolt on' carbs (TBs for those who like and other performance goodies ?

Would you care to expand on that ??

There isn't currently any interest for a standard car to compete against the more powerful cars - chicken and egg here - no class, no cars, no cars, no class !

Yes there is. The points in class are not the bulk of total point allocation - how many times do I have to repeat that ?...........................

Yes, a std car can win the challenge on points but what really sticks is a great time in the hall of fame - look at all the interest generated over beating Steve Adams long-held record !

..........................Oh, it seems you do understand that - so why are you struggling to accept it ??

The new sytsem gives something for everyone. Some may want to prove that a standard car can win the Drag Challenge. Some may want to chase down a record in a particular class. Some may want to just get in The Hall of Fame without being in the Top 10. Some just do it for a bit of fun and others to just improve on themselves.

If a stock Z owner wants to be recognised for having a fast car then he needs to go buy some tuning products (or remove all off his body panels).

I think the hall of fame should be enlarged to incorporate ALL the std Zs, ZXs, even if those classes are not currently being run in this years' challenge ! And that before next years' challenge, a review be made to look at running more std classes - after all, if the challenge is a success over all the motorsport restrictions now, you will attract more std cars tu run (but only if they have a chance of lasting glory !

Monitor attendence within each class over this coming season (take a peak at round 1 to give you a feel) - then decide if numbers warrant further splits. All it will achieve is further watering down.

 

[zedhead260]

I Under currect rules, the 4ways racer Z or Big Sam would run in Class 1 S30 (on road legal 'semi-slicks')

Yes and how I would love them both to attend and run against both of them in class in MY car (...............when it's finished).

But neither of those 2 cars are ever going to see the light of day - particularly the former.

Ben's Janspeed car on the other hand may. And providing he runs with road legal tyres, he runs in class 1 - and kicks the ass out of Skiddells record.

 

[SeanDezart]

The rules don't actually state the words "weight reduction", but it does say "anything goes as long as the original series engine, N/A, remains the core of the project" - if rules don't state that you can't do something, then one must assume that you can..

Agreed, that is the principal behind any succesful motorracing team - the knowledge to exploit the rules to the full. My doubt still stands that perhaps the "anything goes as long as the original series engine, N/A, remains the core of the project" needs to be reviewed - it's TOO open and dissuasive against those with (nearly) standard Zs.

But then it isn't standard

but that's my point, under the current classification, a standard car could be lightened AND gain an entry in the Hall of Fame as a standard car when in fact, it's less of one than a std Z that gained a time (as Mr F. said) of 15.89) ! Is it fair for someone to gain that entry now, as, for example, a lightened std Z ?

Would you care to expand on that ??.

Yes, but only a little. Standard Zs can be made to go faster (standard as in the factory configuration). 'Blueprinted' engines for example and perhaps standard Nissan Z parts could be allowed (Nismo LSDs and other parts homologated by Nissan in the era of each car). Reflect also on the power available to the Roadsports cars, running as 'standard' cars !

Yes there is. The points in class are not the bulk of total point allocation - how many times do I have to repeat that ?.....................................................Oh, it seems you do understand that - so why are you struggling to accept it ??

I do accept it and how many times must I say that I think the current points system is great - no argument ? My bone of contention, since the start has been with the classification rules. Stop clouding the issue with the drag challenge AND especially the points system....please !

The new sytsem gives something for everyone. Some may want to prove that a standard car can win the Drag Challenge. Some may want to chase down a record in a particular class. Some may want to just get in The Hall of Fame without being in the Top 10. Some just do it for a bit of fun and others to just improve on themselves.

If a stock Z owner wants to be recognised for having a fast car then he needs to go buy some tuning products (or remove all off his body panels).

You're saying that a stock Z owner can't be recognised for having a fast car unless he/she buys tuning goodies and removes body panels ? "Would you care to expand on that ?

 

[grolls]

I dont know why you worry so much Sean as drag strips have no ditch's so you stand a fair chance of making the 1/4 mile run.

 

[datsun dave]

"anything goes as long as the original series engine, N/A, remains the core of the project" needs to be reviewed - it's TOO open and dissuasive against those with (nearly) standard Zs.

Then why did steve adams record stand unbeaten for 8 years

​

 

[MaximG]

Standing as the currant leader of the first round in my basically stock 240z I'm all for letting the season pan out and then review at the end of the year.

I cant understand why someone who probably has no intention of attending these meeting wants to question the validity of the rules as they stand. Surely it is down to people who attend to decide if they are fair or not?

Quite bemused at this whole thread...

Mike B

 

[zedhead260]

but that's my point, under the current classification, a standard car could be lightened AND gain an entry in the Hall of Fame as a standard car when in fact, it's less of one than a std Z that gained a time (as Mr F. said) of 15.89) ! Is it fair for someone to gain that entry now, as, for example, a lightened std Z ?

Any car can be lightened, but can only gain entry into the Hall of Fame if it runs quicker than a 14.999. It'll only gain entry into Top 10 in class if it beats whatever time happens to be 10th etc.
Entry conditions into the Hall of Fame are slightly different from those into the Top 10's.

Yes, but only a little. Standard Zs can be made to go faster (standard as in the factory configuration). 'Blueprinted' engines for example and perhaps standard Nissan Z parts could be allowed (Nismo LSDs and other parts homologated by Nissan in the era of each car). Reflect also on the power available to the Roadsports cars, running as 'standard' cars !

I think you're clutching at straws now, and still you only seem to be considering S30. A 240Z with Nissan only uprated parts (period homologation) with lightened panels is equally as modified as a 240Z with a Janspeed Exhaust, 2" SU's and a carbon fibre bonnet.
Before you consider a new class, consider if these cars actually exist in sufficient numbers.

I do accept it and how many times must I say that I think the current points system is great - no argument ? My bone of contention, since the start has been with the classification rules. Stop clouding the issue with the drag challenge AND especially the points system....please !

As above, I think you are dreaming of cars which don't attend - and they have not been attending since before the new classes were introduced (as MrF said). So it's not like we are putting them off.

You're saying that a stock Z owner can't be recognised for having a fast car unless he/she buys tuning goodies and removes body panels ? "Would you care to expand on that ?

I wouldn't condsider a stock Z to be fast - why do you think they want to be recognised for being slow ?? Unless of course they win The Drag Challenge - but you don't need to be the fastest to win, which was the whole point of it.

 

[SeanDezart]

I cant understand why someone who probably has no intention of attending these meeting wants to question the validity of the rules as they stand. Surely it is down to people who attend to decide if they are fair or not?

What can't you understand ? The fact that anyone may wish to discuss anything on this forum ? All I can do from over here (without my car) is discuss - leave me a little pleasure for being a club member !

I won't apologise for having an opinion, and certainly not for having one that doesn't run completely parallel with evertyone elses' and definitely not for voicing that opinion - understand now ? Don't be bemused, be amused ! After all, it was quiet on this forum aside from this thread which has stimulated some strong opinions.

And btw, congrats. on leading the challenge - I wish you a great season !

 

[SKiddell]

Opinion –
Everyone is entitled to an opinion Sean, but at least let it be an educated and informed one.
Criticism--
Criticism is great and welcomed but at least let it be constructive rather than sniping from a distance.


First a little history lesson.

Back in 2005, Mike and a few others decided that it might be time for a spring clean and put the drag challenge up for review, attendance was mainly from a few hard core guys -- which was a great shame is it is a fantastic fun day where you get to drive at speeds up to (and over) 100 mph perfectly legally, where you can accurately measure the performance of your vehicle (and yourself) on a stage which is internationally recognised, get to drink loads of coffee and eat junk food, but most of all be with your friends. The committee agreed that we needed to attract new people and with only a few attending, only those few were ever likely to win -- you can hardly call that a competition.
In order to attract new people we needed a points system that levelled the playing field, giving the newcomer as much chance as the guy with the £10K engine (or carbon fibre car ehh Sean)
As Rob mentioned we racked our brains for hours trying to come up with a formula that rewarded the newcomer and the veteran alike, complex maths, spreadsheets etc all failed or were to difficult to implement (remember people give up their free time to do this so it needs to be as simple and as easy as possible). Then after a couple of weeks, the task group as we shall call them (Mike, Pete, Rob and me) got together at a mutual meeting point and thrashed out the details. We debated the class structure for hours and as a result, significant changes were made to make them all fair, representative and competitive (please note the word for later use). We still needed a point’s structure to support this though. It was at that point that the suggestion was made to use reaction time, and what a perfect measure it is, for no matter what car you have, the reaction time is down to the driver watching a light tree and lifting his foot off the clutch. The resultant format was then debated several times over the Winter and when it finally came time to put it to the test, hey presto it worked and a relative newcomer to the drag scene (no offence intended MaximG) is right up there with the old hands, therefore the system has provided a competitive stage by which the old and the young, modified or standard can race together and compete.
To go back to the word competitive, if we diversify the classes any further (a la your suggestion) how on earth can the drag challenge remain competitive, as all we will end up doing is racing our selves, there are few enough people attending as it is – don’t try and turn it into a liberal circus where we are so afraid to loose that we end up creating a system whereby everyone gets a prize.

 

[pmac]

pinion –
Everyone is entitled to an opinion Sean, but at least let it be an educated and informed one.
Criticism--
Criticism is great and welcomed but at least let it be constructive rather than sniping from a distance.


First a little history lesson.

Back in 2005, Mike and a few others decided that it might be time for a spring clean and put the drag challenge up for review, attendance was mainly from a few hard core guys -- which was a great shame is it is a fantastic fun day where you get to drive at speeds up to (and over) 100 mph perfectly legally, where you can accurately measure the performance of your vehicle (and yourself) on a stage which is internationally recognised, get to drink loads of coffee and eat junk food, but most of all be with your friends. The committee agreed that we needed to attract new people and with only a few attending, only those few were ever likely to win -- you can hardly call that a competition.
In order to attract new people we needed a points system that levelled the playing field, giving the newcomer as much chance as the guy with the £10K engine (or carbon fibre car ehh Sean)
As Rob mentioned we racked our brains for hours trying to come up with a formula that rewarded the newcomer and the veteran alike, complex maths, spreadsheets etc all failed or were to difficult to implement (remember people give up their free time to do this so it needs to be as simple and as easy as possible). Then after a couple of weeks, the task group as we shall call them (Mike, Pete, Rob and me) got together at a mutual meeting point and thrashed out the details. We debated the class structure for hours and as a result, significant changes were made to make them all fair, representative and competitive (please note the word for later use). We still needed a point’s structure to support this though. It was at that point that the suggestion was made to use reaction time, and what a perfect measure it is, for no matter what car you have, the reaction time is down to the driver watching a light tree and lifting his foot off the clutch. The resultant format was then debated several times over the Winter and when it finally came time to put it to the test, hey presto it worked and a relative newcomer to the drag scene (no offence intended MaximG) is right up there with the old hands, therefore the system has provided a competitive stage by which the old and the young, modified or standard can race together and compete.
To go back to the word competitive, if we diversify the classes any further (a la your suggestion) how on earth can the drag challenge remain competitive, as all we will end up doing is racing our selves, there are few enough people attending as it is – don’t try and turn it into a liberal circus where we are so afraid to loose that we end up creating a system whereby everyone gets a prize.

Well said Steve.
I do hope that the vast majority of Club members who read your piece will realize that all the above mentioned time and effort is being made to ensure that one of the Z Clubs longest standing sporting event continues into the future through the addition of new blood.

Further proof of the even handed nature of the new system can be found in the results from York......
Steve Sinclair had a very powerful car without doubt. Faster on the strip at York than the other three competitors.
He stood a really good chance of scooping top points from the day.
But this time out he didnt as his reaction time was not the best and his attendance points were beaten too as he was first time out this year.
There is no doubt that Steve can be a serious challenger for the overall years title. But he will have to prove the reliability of the car and himself by attending more rounds and sharpen up his reactions too.

At this point there is no clear indication of who will win overall and with still six rounds left anyone who has not yet appeared can still turn up and win.
Now if that aint a good system then I dont know what is.

 

[SeanDezart]

Ok ! Have a nice week guys - I'm off to work in Brittany until Friday.

 

[Mr.F]

Ben's Janspeed car on the other hand may. And providing he runs with road legal tyres, he runs in class 1

Is it road legal overall and will it drive to the track? Pure race cars generally will be regarded to have stepped outside the S30 Class 1 rules and will be allocated to Super Mod where they might as well run slicks. However a '70s Roadsports car which is driven to the track and is fully road legal fits the current definition of Class 1. Back to a previous discussion on "what is a race car?".

 

[zedhead260]

Thought Ben's car was road legal - oh well Skid's, looks like the record remains out of reach for most

 

[Russ]

That's it, lull him into a false sense of security

 

[SKiddell]

Who woke you up and wheres our drag challenge league table