Classic Values (at the moment 12/23).

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Well, I've just watched the CCA Auction live.

Shockingly low prices, very few meeting the low estimate.

Those high Z prices we see advertised will struggle for a long time I reckon.
 

Zedman

Well-Known Forum User
But will folks drop their asking prices? Or just hold onto the cars?
Why are people not buying the cars - too expensive to buy, too difficult to get parts? Or just cost of living meaning it’s a (hopefully) temporary blip?
 

Geoff-R

Club Member
Car values have been hit hard across the board, it's a buyers market if you have cash. It's a combination of buyer confidence, cash in the market and increasing interest rates. It's not the right time to be a seller really. It will come back but not for a while.
 

Kieronpollock

Club Member
I’d say it’s not just classic car values, my wife’s 2019 Alfa Romeo Stelvio QV has dropped a fair few £k in the last three months and when at the dealer for a service I saw discounts being offered on new cars for first time in a very long time.
Car values are returning to pre Covid levels
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Also, loads of cars and classics have been over valued. It’s just normalisation.
Classic cars have been overpriced for years. They don't make sense if you compare a £40k Classic with a £40k new car. Because they are overpriced people think of them as an investment but if ever 'Capital Gains Tax' was introduced on them the prices would drop dramatically. Also they are a luxury so one of the first things to be affected by cost of living issues.
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
Classic cars have been overpriced for years. They don't make sense if you compare a £40k Classic with a £40k new car. Because they are overpriced people think of them as an investment but if ever 'Capital Gains Tax' was introduced on them the prices would drop dramatically. Also they are a luxury so one of the first things to be affected by cost of living issues.

'Classic cars have been overpriced for years'
That is a sweeping generalisation and just your opinion Rob.
Supply and demand dictates commodity prices, basic Economics.

They don't make sense if you compare a £40k Classic with a £40k new car.
In what way doesn't it make sense? Classic car buyers and cars come in many guises, one size doesn't fit all.
Some will be buying first and foremost as investments, some are buying purely as marque enthusiasts and then there is everyone in between.
Some will be buying their 20th car to go in a collection, some will be buying their only car which may even be a daily runaround.
Why would you compare it with a new car? Chalk and Cheese. If you choose to go down that rabbit hole then I would argue that there are many useable classics that represent far better value than any new car in the same price bracket. The cheapest new cars available nowadays are £14/15k for small city cars/hatchbacks that will lose 30% of their value as soon as you leave the showroom. Compare that to a well chosen classic from the 1970/80/90's in the same price range that will not depreciate if you choose wisely and may even appreciate to cover the slightly higher running costs involved in older car ownership and I think classic cars can make very good sense in that instance.

Because they are overpriced people think of them as an investment - ???? that doesn't make sense.
but if ever 'Capital Gains Tax' was introduced on them the prices would drop dramatically.
Why mention CGT. and prices wouldn't drop drastically on the vast majority of classics anyway? It would be far too difficult and costly to administer for Treasury with little benefit. In the tax system cars are classed as 'wasting assets' with a predicted lifespan. Do you not think we already have enough taxes in this country? Also prices go up as well as down so this will never be considered. Imagine all those claims for huge capital losses there would have been from people who lost their shirts on Astons, Ferraris and Jags in the early 1990's. That period was a proper recession and collapse in market prices with losses on single cars running into many tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands on high end cars.

Luxury items first thing to be affected by cost of living issues - we can broadly agree on that but you will find a lot of buyers are from the more mature age group who are less affected by this often having paid off their mortgages, buying with cash etc
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
'Classic cars have been overpriced for years'
That is a sweeping generalisation and just your opinion Rob.
Supply and demand dictates commodity prices, basic Economics.

They don't make sense if you compare a £40k Classic with a £40k new car.
In what way doesn't it make sense? Classic car buyers and cars come in many guises, one size doesn't fit all.
Some will be buying first and foremost as investments, some are buying purely as marque enthusiasts and then there is everyone in between.
Some will be buying their 20th car to go in a collection, some will be buying their only car which may even be a daily runaround.
Why would you compare it with a new car? Chalk and Cheese. If you choose to go down that rabbit hole then I would argue that there are many useable classics that represent far better value than any new car in the same price bracket. The cheapest new cars available nowadays are £14/15k for small city cars/hatchbacks that will lose 30% of their value as soon as you leave the showroom. Compare that to a well chosen classic from the 1970/80/90's in the same price range that will not depreciate if you choose wisely and may even appreciate to cover the slightly higher running costs involved in older car ownership and I think classic cars can make very good sense in that instance.

Because they are overpriced people think of them as an investment - ???? that doesn't make sense.
but if ever 'Capital Gains Tax' was introduced on them the prices would drop dramatically.
Why mention CGT. and prices wouldn't drop drastically on the vast majority of classics anyway? It would be far too difficult and costly to administer for Treasury with little benefit. In the tax system cars are classed as 'wasting assets' with a predicted lifespan. Do you not think we already have enough taxes in this country? Also prices go up as well as down so this will never be considered. Imagine all those claims for huge capital losses there would have been from people who lost their shirts on Astons, Ferraris and Jags in the early 1990's. That period was a proper recession and collapse in market prices with losses on single cars running into many tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands on high end cars.

Luxury items first thing to be affected by cost of living issues - we can broadly agree on that but you will find a lot of buyers are from the more mature age group who are less affected by this often having paid off their mortgages, buying with cash etc
There speaks a trader.😉
 
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Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
I have owned 3 240Zs and 1 260Z.

I have also owned 1 350Z and one 370Z.

My best (as far as £ is concerned) car was a standard 240Z that 'made' me £20k.

My worst (as far as £ is concerned) was my 370Z. Lost me £12k.

My 240Z needed a respray and engine rebuild (coolant pressurisation).

My 370Z was like new.

How can my 240Z be worth at 40 years old (needing attention) more than a new 370Z?

Just sayin! Crazy. All down to investment potential. Being realistic my lovely 240Z should have been worth £5k

One day the market will adjust.
 
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status

Well-Known Forum User
Depends how long you keep them probably Rob,I paid £ 2600 for my Zed,wots it worth now I wonder
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Depends how long you keep them probably Rob,I paid £ 2600 for my Zed,wots it worth now I wonder
Values should only rise due to inflation really. So when did you buy it? When I was younger a 240Z was about £3k new.

An Escort Mexico was about £1700. Yesterday a standard Mexico with rust sold for £33k plus fees why? Because someone who buys it thinks they can make money. Will the buyer repair it and use it and not consider value on resale?
 

jonbills

Membership Secretary
Site Administrator
I have owned 3 240Zs and 1 260Z.

I have also owned 1 350Z and one 370Z.

My best (as far as £ is concerned) car was a standard 240Z that 'made' me £20k.

My worst (as far as £ is concerned) was my 370Z. Lost me £12k.

My 240Z needed a respray and engine rebuild (coolant pressurisation).

My 370Z was like new.

How can my 240Z be worth at 40 years old (needing attention) be worth more than a new 370Z?

Just sayin! Crazy. All down to investment potential. Being realistic my lovely 240Z should have been worth £5k

One day the market will adjust.
your 40 yr old 240z is worth more than your second hand 370z because
1) there are (or were at the time) more people that wanted to buy a 240z than there were cars available
2) there are (or were at the time) more 370z available than there were people that wanted to buy them.

Same reason people pay many times their salaries on houses.
 
I have owned 3 240Zs and 1 260Z.

I have also owned 1 350Z and one 370Z.

My best (as far as £ is concerned) car was a standard 240Z that 'made' me £20k.

My worst (as far as £ is concerned) was my 370Z. Lost me £12k.

My 240Z needed a respray and engine rebuild (coolant pressurisation).

My 370Z was like new.

How can my 240Z be worth at 40 years old (needing attention) be worth more than a new 370Z?

Just sayin! Crazy. All down to investment potential. Being realistic my lovely 240Z should have been worth £5k

One day the market will adjust.

I think you've got it wrong Rob. Classics are worth what they are because you can't get them or there's a limited number of them. that can be art/cars/wine.

Thats why your 240z is worth more than a 370Z.

Only thats why we've seen people playing around with VIN numbers on our s30's and massviely with escorts.

Its slightly remiss to say 'there speaks a trader' with Mr Vega's post. He is, howevere there's a lot of common sense to it. I think he'd say prices have been driven by cheap cash, its the lack of thats causing a correction. Thats on everything in the world though.

Values have nothing to do with inflation, otherwise they'd have been more or less flat for the past 10 years.
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
The question here is 'why do people want them'.

I suspect as an investment.

Most people wouldn't buy them if they lost money.
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
There speaks a trader
That's very dismissive and if it's meant as an insult does that make my opinion less valid?
A trader? Attack the argument not the man. Funny enough I don't see myself as that, well not a 'car trader' as you are implying because I have/had many more business interests away from cars that have always paid the way. Classic car import/export has never put food on the table always been just a small sideline hobby business that I've been lucky enough to run and enjoy whilst indulging a lifelong passion and enthusiasm for classic cars.

You are the Chairman/Treasurer of the Z Club but no longer have any classic car, you think that a 370Z has more value than a 240Z and that people only buy older classics for investment? That is a very strange take. A 370Z is just a boring second hand car with no charm or presence in my mind. In a pub car park or a show no-one is looking twice at a 370Z but you will spend all day talking over your S30 to all and sundry. In fact I was offended at Silverstone Classic (50 year anniversary of the S30) when an elderly gentleman turned up on the stand in a 370Z and promptly parked it on the front row alongside all the other S30's and got offended when he was told to move it to the back of the stand. He knew sod all about S30's and was more interested in having a discussion with someone about how he could get a set of golf clubs in the back.

Most people buy a classic car with their heart for nostalgic reasons not for investment. If the car they own goes up in value that is a bonus but not the prime motivator for most buyers. They remind them of better times, their father or grandfather had one, they saw one race or rally back in the day, their Uncle took them out for a Sunday drive, their best friends Dad had one. Simple cars that are easy to work on and fix if they go wrong they evoke memories of simpler times and have none of the unnecessary bloated bells and whistles seen on modern cars.

They provide a raw real driving experience on the road, every trip in an early S30Z is an adventure and an assault on the senses with smell, noise and visual aesthetics top of the list. You can't guarantee you are going to get to your destination in same way as a modern car. That gives a sense of risk and excitement. Classic cars have soul and character in bucketloads and are a statement of design integrity versus the bland anodyne modern cars that are all developed in the same wind tunnel and all look the same. All the guys I know in this club and most others are first and foremost classic car enthusiasts and investment is not the prime reason for any of them to indulge their passion. Agreed, at the top end of the market especially you get the investor types that salt cars away in dehumidified storage and only see the £ notes investment potential but they represent only a small percentage of the market and probably only a handful would buy an S30Z for that reason.
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Chris, I'll reply in more depth tomorrow. I apoogise if you were insulted but my point re trader was that you wouldn't buy these cars if they lost money like a modern car.

I love the S30 and hence why I joined the Club and I still support it. I just think that values are too high (along with a lot of classics).

The auction yesterday reflected that.
 
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