Big Sam for sale

I'm not going to delete the posts here but guys please don't continue the VIN discussion in this thread. You've already gone over that ground multiple times.
 
Mr_Tenno said:
I'm not going to delete the posts here but guys please don't continue the VIN discussion in this thread. You've already gone over that ground multiple times.
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With all due respect, if we can't broach the subject of 'Big Sam' having been more than one chassis, each with their own chassis number and 'identity', then you might as well close the whole forum down.

Stuff like this is the very lifeblood of a marque/model dedicated forum.
 
SeanDezart said:
You're just moving the goalposts.:thumbs:
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No, you just don't know where the original goalposts are located.

It's simple. 'Big Sam' is a character in a story. There are several chassis numbers - several cars, each with their own histories - in that story.

Several. Get it? That means more than two...
 
Albrecht said:
With all due respect, if we can't broach the subject of 'Big Sam' having been more than one chassis, each with their own chassis number and 'identity', then you might as well close the whole forum down.

Stuff like this is the very lifeblood of a marque/model dedicated forum.
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Hear, hear - let's not avoid grey fog but embrace it....:unsure:
 
Albrecht said:
No, you just don't know where the original goalposts are located.

It's simple. 'Big Sam' is a character in a story. There are several chassis numbers - several cars, each with their own histories - in that story.

Several. Get it? That means more than two...
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Have you ever used a loaded nail gun ?

Several chassis numbers...........?

Albrecht said:
The identity of the car is a one-time only deal, created by the manufacturer. The configuration of the car can be changed (LHD to RHD, RHD to LHD, engine swaps, transmission swaps, roof chops, making a convertible/wagon, overfenders etc etc etc) but the identity stays the same.

What you seem to be forgetting - and it's a big part of what prompted my bringing this up again - is that with an identity swap (unlike a configuration swap) there are at least TWO identities involved. Swapping an identity from a donor to a recipient is not always the end of the story, and it can lead to a domino effect of messy consequences.
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So this is a car that has had several chassis', at least one of which was LHD converted to RHD.....and it's all ok because the car has some history ?

So by definition, my rotten UK market shell being replaced by a convenient LHD shell but retaining the original ID will only be ok if it becomes notorius ? Of course, being off-road won't harm it's reputation either....we'll make it a Baja replica - that'll do.

Nothing personal because you're not the only one to remain intransigent but don't you feel that the dice are just a tadge bit loaded against the poor, ordinary bloke who's looking to get his sad old UK Z back on the road without it costing him a mortgage ?

After all, don't we want more Zs on our roads over here ?
 
Albrecht said:
With all due respect, if we can't broach the subject of 'Big Sam' having been more than one chassis, each with their own chassis number and 'identity', then you might as well close the whole forum down.

Stuff like this is the very lifeblood of a marque/model dedicated forum.
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No argument here! We can definitely discuss it as it relates to this car. Taking the thread off topic to taking about all cars (I'm looking at you Sean) when we already have a thread for that is where there's an issue.
 
SeanDezart said:
Several chassis numbers...........?

So this is a car that has had several chassis', at least one of which was LHD converted to RHD.....and it's all ok because the car has some history ?

So by definition, my rotten UK market shell being replaced by a convenient LHD shell but retaining the original ID will only be ok if it becomes notorius ?
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No, it's a story that has several CARS in it. Can you honestly not see the difference?

The current 'Big Sam' has the chassis number that was engraved on its bodyshell by Nissan when it was made. The chassis number hasn't been swapped. That chassis, that car, started life in 1972 when it was built up as a Works rally car, one of a batch scheduled to take part in the 1973 Monte Carlo Rallye. And yet the 'Big Sam' story started way back in 1970, with a batch of Works cars being built by Nissan to take part in the 1970 RAC Rally...

I really can't think of any way to get you to understand this whole thing whilst you obsess on this "re-shell"/ringer idea and confuse that with the idea of a continuous and interwoven story that encompasses several different cars.

I repeat, the current iteration of 'Big Sam' is residing in a bodyshell which has NOT had its factory-engraved chassis number changed or altered.
 
This is getting really painful, as with the last thread. Why is it that when things are spelt out over and over and over again, that people don't understand? I gave up on the last thread as it was really winding me up. I just wanted to grab hold of someone, shake them and say "why you not listen".

Anyway, as I cant be bothered to read through the last VIN thread and the endless reaping of the same stuff, what is the general opinion of the following and how it also applies to Big Sam:

I buy a LHD US shell and convert to RHD with the pedal box, steering column, rack, dashboard and fit a new bulkhead plate. I leave the existing VIN in place and retain the existing number plate. I cant see anything wrong with this just as I cant see anything wrong with reshelling Big Sam or reshellling a newish car with a factory supplied bodyshell or reshelling with a heritage shell.

If this post is not considered in keeping with this thread then please delete it and I wont be offended.
 
I think that’s largely agreed to be fine. It’s just a change of configuration of the car, like deleting the bumpers etc.
 
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johnymd said:
This is getting really painful, as with the last thread. Why is it that when things are spelt out over and over and over again, that people don't understand? I gave up on the last thread as it was really winding me up. I just wanted to grab hold of someone, shake them and say "why you not listen".

Anyway, as I cant be bothered to read through the last VIN thread and the endless reaping of the same stuff, what is the general opinion of the following and how it also applies to Big Sam:

I buy a LHD US shell and convert to RHD with the pedal box, steering column, rack, dashboard and fit a new bulkhead plate. I leave the existing VIN in place and retain the existing number plate. I cant see anything wrong with this just as I cant see anything wrong with reshelling Big Sam or reshellling a newish car with a factory supplied bodyshell or reshelling with a heritage shell.

If this post is not considered in keeping with this thread then please delete it and I wont be offended.
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Hi John, that's why Mr Tenno moderated it and then he gets 'stick' for that.

If the shell is converted as you state then that's fine IMO (who cares about my opinion?). Also IMO the the DVLA will not be interested in Big Sam's VIN however with cars that have significant historical interest like Big Sam things are different. For example I love Kevin Bristow's ex works Rally Car because I saw that competing in 1971. I've seen the car and sat in the same seat and held the same steering wheel as the driver did in 1971. If the shell was replaced with another 'lookalike' it would just not be as attractive to me.
 
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johnymd said:
I buy a LHD US shell and convert to RHD with the pedal box, steering column, rack, dashboard and fit a new bulkhead plate. I leave the existing VIN in place and retain the existing number plate. I cant see anything wrong with this just as I cant see anything wrong with reshelling Big Sam or reshellling a newish car with a factory supplied bodyshell or reshelling with a heritage shell.
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Sounds like the proper way to do it and from what Alan posted seems to be the same method used with Big Sam. If it had tried to retain the VIN from the very first shell, that's where the issue would be.
 
Alan should re post here what he wrote on the Facebook thread regarding the history of the cars involved and even perhaps expand it as he did say it was too long a post for FB, so it might be perfect for the club forum. The history as he has made painfully clear, is not about VIN swaps, it's about several different cars.
 
TBH I'm not really buying the Dr Who analogy!
In real world terms, if Hugh Hefner was carrying an organ donor card and you received his heart and lungs, would you be able to assume his identity?
As good as that sounds, it doesn't really work!
 
I think the big issue comes if the story stops with the new car. If all of a name's racing history was under a single car and then it's 'reborn' into a new car right before sale then I think that's where a buyer might baulk.

If the new car has been used to significantly continue the story then it's probably acceptable to most people who buy these kind of vehicles.
 
Mark N said:
TBH I'm not really buying the Dr Who analogy!
In real world terms, if Hugh Hefner was carrying an organ donor card and you received his heart and lungs, would you be able to assume his identity?
As good as that sounds, it doesn't really work!
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In the Big Sam case, as has been said, we aren't talking about a legal identity or a reshell/VIN issue. It's a case of a race car getting messed up and the important bits being transferred to a new car IN PERIOD to allow continued competition by the team running it, with its subsequent race history associated with that second iteration. Big Sam is a story involving multiple cars that assumed a sort of collective identity with continuity of parts that made them Big Sam passed down between them. Those cars also had stories in their own right as Alan highlighted before they became iterations of Big Sam.
 
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