its finally happened........... 240z (Moderated)

[Albrecht]

Its stripped:-

At the risk of upsetting you - but being honest rather than sitting on my hands and dishonestly saying nothing - I have to say that I'm disappointed to see this. I don't think it's the proper solution to a sunroof hole...

I was hoping you'd get another roof skin or complete roof, and have it transplanted. I did it with one my my cars in the past, and it was worth every penny. It's not like they are that difficult to get hold of as used panels. Whatever anyone says, your roof is now going to have a fair bit of filler in it.

Sorry, but it makes me worried for what other shortcuts are going to be taken.

 

[grahamjc]

At the risk of upsetting you - but being honest rather than sitting on my hands and dishonestly saying nothing - I have to say that I'm disappointed to see this. I don't think it's the proper solution to a sunroof hole...

I was hoping you'd get another roof skin or complete roof, and have it transplanted. I did it with one my my cars in the past, and it was worth every penny. It's not like they are that difficult to get hold of as used panels. Whatever anyone says, your roof is now going to have a fair bit of filler in it.

Sorry, but it makes me worried for what other shortcuts are going to be taken.

No worries... I have not seen any replacement roof panels around and needed to progress with the build. They have used this method numerous times in the past.

If its not up to scratch before painting, I will get it replaced - IF I can find a replacement panel.

 

[Ian]

Good to see it progressing.




I assume they will grind those welds flat and then fill the rest with lead?

 

[Albrecht]

...........A roof panel could probably be found in the UK if you reach out to the 'community', and could allow a little more time for it to happen. If not, then you could certainly obtain a decent used one from USA-based sources. Whatever it costs will be worth it, as you'll be adding value to the 'shell of the car. That bodyshell is PART NUMBER ONE, and should be your priority at this stage.


Please take my comments in the positive way in which they are intended.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Albrect, you are a perfectionist with these cars and therefore to patch a hole to you is sacrilege.

This is a reasonable car but requires work to make it strong and presentable and Graham is going down that road. I don't think he intended to remove the sunroof but a few people including me have suggested he do this.

I tried to source him a panel from someone I know who has sold some in the past (not Pmac) but his 'stock' has now run out.

Basically Graham is replacing glass and rubber with metal and not unpicking or disturbing the roof seams. It will be an improvement IMO.

Timescale - some people like to get on with it, others like to take years. If the car is in a body-shop not Graham's personal garage they may well want it 'turned around' sooner rather than later.

Let Graham share his progress with us without fear of criticism however good the intention.

 

[grahamjc]

Good to see it progressing.




I assume they will grind those welds flat and then fill the rest with lead?

I believe that is the plan.........


I would really struggle with shipping of a roof from the US, especially considering what I have experienced with other parts (for other cars). Simple example, well packed carbon mirrors arrived 4 months late and 1 had a monster crack in it. They only help I got was "send it back and we will refund, minus shipping and admin".

I have spoken to a few people about a roof, I couldnt find one. If you can, I will happily take it

Dont mind constructive criticism at all...

 

[grahamjc]

Timescale - spot on, see my post above, about hating to see a car off the road for years, I prefer the enjoyment of driving it

 

[tel240z]

Timescale - spot on, see my post above, about hating to see a car off the road for years, I prefer the enjoyment of driving it
__________________
Exellent we are all a long time dead

 

[Albrecht]

Albrect, you are a perfectionist with these cars and therefore to patch a hole to you is sacrilege.

I don't know where this "perfectionist" idea comes from. I am - categorically - not a 'perfectionist'. I am a pragmatist. I'm not interested in concours cars or trailered show queens. I prefer honest finishes, good engineering and some signs of age on a 40+ year old object. Genuine patina is nothing to be scared of. Certain things are better done right when you have the opportunity to choose.

Patching a hole is no problem for me - especially if it's in an area where it can be disguised or overlooked - as long as it is not done cynically or incompetently. ALL of my cars have such repairs. There will be lots of areas on Graham's 'shell (the 'air tubes' / hood ledge reinforcements in particular) where piecemeal repairs - done right - will suffice. If it's a race or rally car build then cosmetics don't matter so much, but proper structural strength and the 'shell's integrity always does. And if there's an opportunity to put such an aberration right (like replacing a roof panel that has a huge hole in the middle of it) then it's worth it in the long run to bite the bullet and get it done.

Basically Graham is replacing glass and rubber with metal and not unpicking or disturbing the roof seams. It will be an improvement IMO.

But this is my point. If it's going to be done, then this is THE time to do it properly. Unpicking factory seams and spotwelds is THE way to do it. It's not something to be scared of, or to shy away from and use timescales and schedules as an excuse. I already suggested to Graham that a used roof panel would be the right way to tackle the problem and as far as I was aware he took that on board, but I hadn't seen or heard him actively looking. I didn't even get a chance to help, and the next thing I see is a welded-up hole...

 

[grahamjc]

Im happy to still discuss a roof if one can be sourced, its not like what has been done is it and I cannot change my mind.

 

[Stockdale]

I have followed this thread with real interest. I really don't have the truly incredible skill that some on the form possess and admire their ability to bring back cases which might otherwise be scrapped. I am though a little worried by the intensity of some of the most recent postings. Cars are really about fun and nostalgia and it probably isn't really necessary to get too deep on perfect detail.

I like a few other forum members knew these cars when first introduced and enjoyed them then. Personally I have no issue at all with a sunroof in a 70's car and my own preference here would have been to keep it and refurbish it. They are period correct as a common aftermarket fitting (at the time they were ultra-desirable along with vinyl roofing and pinstripes). Alloy wheels were also then being introduced (the most common Woolfrace and now ultra-desirable 'Wolfrace' wheels first appearing in 1971) and were equally 'aftermarket' in the period.

What goes around comes around. By the early 70's 'white' bathroom sanitary ware was being stripped from houses across the nation in favour of 'avacado' 'peach' dark blue' and pink'!. Now all that is being stripped in favour of 'white'! The point being that if it was correct at the time then it really ought to be correct now. If it isn't it will be shortly.

Keep going with the project. I am fascinated.

 

[Albrecht]

I like a few other forum members knew these cars when first introduced and enjoyed them then. Personally I have no issue at all with a sunroof in a 70's car and my own preference here would have been to keep it and refurbish it. They are period correct as a common aftermarket fitting (at the time they were ultra-desirable along with vinyl roofing and pinstripes). Alloy wheels were also then being introduced (the most common Woolfrace and now ultra-desirable 'Wolfrace' wheels first appearing in 1971) and were equally 'aftermarket' in the period.

I think you'll find that the sunroof in question is very likely to have been fitted some time in the 1980s, and - like the body kit - late 80s at that. It's hardly 'in-period' with the car.

But the bone of contention here is a difference in opinion on how to delete and rectify properly, not on whether they are 'cool' / 'period-correct' or not.

 

[grahamjc]

I think you'll find that the sunroof in question is very likely to have been fitted some time in the 1980s, and - like the body kit - late 80s at that. It's hardly 'in-period' with the car.

But the bone of contention here is a difference in opinion on how to delete and rectify properly, not on whether they are 'cool' / 'period-correct' or not.

Maybe it will come back to haunt me, maybe not. As they, some lessons have to be learned the hard way

 

[racer]

Hi Graham

I must agree with Alans point regarding the flexing of the body.
My car has been tracked for many years and there is lots of stress fractures all over it.
Ok as your cars not being raced it may not be such an issue but, my car has a full cage and strut braces etc and still flexes quite a bit. It's something to consider now rather than later. I'd hate to see your nice fresh paint cracking after some fast road/track driving.
Good luck

 

[Dale]

How about.....?

http://zclub.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20495

 

[grahamjc]

Hi Graham

I must agree with Alans point regarding the flexing of the body.
My car has been tracked for many years and there is lots of stress fractures all over it.
Ok as your cars not being raced it may not be such an issue but, my car has a full cage and strut braces etc and still flexes quite a bit. It's something to consider now rather than later. I'd hate to see your nice fresh paint cracking after some fast road/track driving.
Good luck

Thanks, definitely thinking about it. Dont suppose you could send me some pictures? What spec is your car? Standard or modified (if modded, how much)?

If it happens on the standard roof, then all I am doing is putting off the inevitable. Is there actually a fix or do you just accept it?

How about.....?

http://zclub.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20495

Nice looking.... PMd

 

[Dale]

Nice looking.... PMd

Here's Craig's website with contact detail on....

http://www.frpautomotive.com/index.html

 

[grahamjc]

Here's Craig's website with contact detail on....

http://www.frpautomotive.com/index.html

thanks, didnt realize it was that company

 

[Rob Gaskin]

You don't want 'racer's' roof.

I dare you to post some pics Matt.

 

[richiep]

Thanks, definitely thinking about it. Dont suppose you could send me some pictures? What spec is your car? Standard or modified (if modded, how much)?

If it happens on the standard roof, then all I am doing is putting off the inevitable. Is there actually a fix or do you just accept it?

Matt's car is an HSCC 70s Road Sports race car. So with the associated permissible modifications (relatively limited compared to what people might do if building a hybrid Z) - its not like he's tweaking the shell with a 400hp+ RB or something.

I'll add another voice - from the perspective of a road car driver - about the flex. They most definitely do, even just when engaging in "spirited" road driving. It's one of the reasons strut bars are a popular bolt-on mod as they do actually have a positive effect.

Thinking about the roof specifically, its not totally unusual to see the occasional car - even road cars - with some evidence of shifting or paint splitting where the roof joins the rear quarters (the factory leaded area). Albrecht mentioned this above. That's a good indication of movement/tension in the roof area. When I rebuilt my car (after an accident that caused roof damage - see my gallery - pale compared to what happened to racer's though!), some rust repairs were done to the areas above the quarter glasses at the roof to quarter join, with new metal let in. Some skimming was done post metal-work and recently I noticed on one side, in the right light, that you can now see the join line between quarter and roof. Very minor and anal but indicative to me of some shifting or shrinkage occurring over time. And that's a tiny area in the periphery. Heavier skimming for shape over a sunroof patch is much more likely to become apparent a few years down the line. And its such a visible area - your eye is drawn to it and imperfections in it.

I think Alan made a very good point - there are many other areas of attention metal-work-wise that the bodyshop needs to focus on, which would give you a time window to explore sourcing a complete roof skin. To quote Hicks in 'Aliens', "it's the only way to be sure". Balance your understandable desire to get the car on the road and enjoy it with the dictum "do it once, do it right".