What Tyres Would You Recommend

[Mr.F]

Oops! Not that we see it any more to jog the memory.....

 

[ZHead]

Sorry for the error ! I always thought the rear wing on Clive's car was the Kaminari "Water Butt" model.........

So where is the rear wing from then ?

 

[Mr.F]

Rear wing on the 240ZG V8 was (is) a Z Centre item of the period. Ben Stapely now has the moulds if anyone still fancies it (he has a version on the hill climb car).

The classic Kaminari style wing was a three piece design - forward pointing runners on the quarters in fibreglass and an aluminium raised centre blade.

Seen here on a Z31 300ZX:

 

[Albrecht]

Rear wing on the 240ZG V8 was..........

Oh dear. That makes it sound like a true factory-built '240ZG' - but with a V8 engine added, when in fact it was simply a UK-market '240Z' with a lot of much later aftermarket fibreglass added to it. No disrespect to the particular car in question, but it most certainly does not earn the right to be called a "240ZG". Only Nissan made them........

Let's not blur the distinctions between the true Factory-built non-export homologation specials and anything else. The two things are quite different, and the likes of 'The Z Club' really ought to be recognising and drawing attention to the differences and leading by example.

No 'ifs', no 'buts', no excuses. The car is not a "240ZG"...........

Thank you.

 

[PHIL HYETT]

240 Z G Nose V8

THE CAR MIGHT NOT BE A REAL G NOSE .BUT ! I AM VERY PROUD TO BE THE NEXT OWNER OF THIS GREAT CAR .IT MIGHT NOT BE A MODERN RESTORATION BUT IT HAS A LOT OF HISTORY AND NEEDS SOME TLC TO BRING IT BACK TO ITS FORMER GLORY . CANT WAIT TO GET STARTED .

PHIL .

 

[Mr.F]

How about calling it a 240Z-G then....?

 

[Albrecht]

THE CAR MIGHT NOT BE A REAL G NOSE .BUT ! I AM VERY PROUD TO BE THE NEXT OWNER OF THIS GREAT CAR.

Congratulations on your purchase, and I sincerely hope you'll be very happy with it. But please don't succumb to the temptation to call it a "240ZG" or even a "240Z-G". The people who designed and manufactured these cars will just laugh at you.

How about calling it a 240Z-G then....?

I have an alternative suggestion. How about dropping the 'G' altogether?

Adding the 'G' is to imply some connection with an official Factory model ( however tenuous ) which is - need I say it - stretching reality past its elastic limit. Is it legal, decent, honest and truthful? Maybe it is legal, but in my opinion its not decent, honest or truthful.........

I'm trying to avoid any disrespect to the car in question, but if people continue to imply some connection to a real Factory-built 'HS30-H' model Fairlady 240ZG then I could just as easily claim disrespect for the real thing and my own car. See where I'm coming from? Makes me wonder why I pay so much extra to insure the real thing.

I'm trying to avoid pointing out that the car in question is a Datsun 240Z with a piece ( or several pieces ) of fibreglass hanging off of it. If I make my grandmother wear a blonde wig and a mini skirt it won't make her Madonna either...........

The genuine article is recognised and acknowledged in Japan, and it is illegal to describe a 'replica' or 'lookey-likey' ( even one that doesn't-lookey-an-awful-lot-likey ) as the 'real thing' when selling it there. Pity the same thing doesn't happen over here.

Let's be frank here. By rights I shouldn't need to be on the back foot here, should I?

 

[datsun dave]

So Albrect whan you finish your latest creation will you also be using the words replica or lookey-likey ?
dont you thing thats getting a bit petty ?
Or will you be changing your name to "Datsun Police" ,dont get me wrong here i respect your imput but come on now.
Is a Z now with pattern wings still a Z ? or will it now be called a "240Z pattern" or if i put a different set of wheels on "240z non original wheels" where will it stop. There is on ebay.com a chap selling Z parts G-nose - ZG Flared arches - and other bits are you going to tell him that because Nissan did not make them then he should stop selling them ?

I can just see Billing next year
"and the best 240Z with all original parts"
"and the best 240Z with pattern parts"
"and the best 240Z with original paint colour"
"and best 240Z with non original paint colour"
"and the best 240z with original 1970 petrol"
"and the best 240Z with non-original wheels"

 

[Albrecht]

So Albrect whan you finish your latest creation will you also be using the words replica or lookey-likey ?

Dave,
I've been using the word 'replica' all the way through the project. 'Lookey-likey' would also be correct. That's the whole point here; my project car is an attempt to accurately replicate something tangible - and therefore calling it a "PZR replica" is appropriate. There's no way in hell I'm ever going to start calling it a real PZR, or even imply that it might be the real thing.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with accurate and tasteful ZG replicas either. The problem is that - at least as far as I have seen anyway - nobody in this country seems to have been able to get the tasteful part right, let alone the accurate bit. What right do such cars have to associate themselves with the real thing?

The car we are talking about here was ( surely!? ) not an attempt at replicating a factory-built ZG, so I don't think it is appropriate to even call it a 'ZG replica', is it? Looks much more like one of those so-called 'IMSA replicas' you see in the USA, if you ask me.

......dont you thing thats getting a bit petty? Or will you be changing your name to "Datsun Police" ,dont get me wrong here i respect your imput but come on now.

Its a dirty job, but somebody needs to do it

But seriously Dave, if you were daft enough to suddenly start calling your car a '432' then I'd feel obligated to point out that it is nothing of the sort. Why should we allow '240ZG' ( or '240Z-G' ) to be used just as inappropriately?

Only Nissan could make a ZG. You could take the genuine parts off of a real ZG and stick them on a UK market 240Z, but that STILL would not be a real ZG. And to be even more pedantic, you could take all the ZG-specific parts off of a genuine ZG - replace them with the standard non-ZG parts, and it would STILL be a ZG......

Do you see where I'm coming from on this? Only Nissan could create ZGs. Thats the long, short and tall of it. Anything else is either a 'replica' ( if it is intended to actually look like the real thing ) or is so far from the real thing that it has no real business associating itself with the real thing by calling itself a 'ZG'. Its quite simple really.

In my opinion, owners clubs really ought to be protecting the historical accuracy of such terms and model nomenclature rather than encouraging inaccurate or inappropriate use. If this is seen as pedantry then it shows how far standards have slipped. I can't imagine it passing without comment if it was a different marque we were talking about. Imagine if somebody wanted to call a Porsche 911-T with various modifications a "911-T/R". I think the Porsche enthusiasts would actively discourage it, rather than encourage it - which is basically what we are seeing here.

]Is a Z now with pattern wings still a Z ? or will it now be called a "240Z pattern"

A 240Z with pattern wings is still a 240Z, Dave. In fact, you could crush the car into a ball and use it as a coffee table - but it would still arguably be what the factory made it. We are straying into the realms of philosophy here, and somewhat missing the point.........

There is on ebay.com a chap selling Z parts G-nose - ZG Flared arches - and other bits are you going to tell him that because Nissan did not make them then he should stop selling them ?

No, he has a perfect right to sell them. But if he uses the terms "G-nose" and "ZG" then the parts really ought to be accurate replicas of such parts. If they are not, then he ought to be taken to task on it. And if they are used on a car, and the owner insists on calling the car a "240ZG" ( or "240Z-G" ) without any mention of the words 'replica' or 'lookalike', then he would be being - in my opinion anyway - basically dishonest.

These are Japanese cars, and we really ought to take more notice of the way they handle such issues in Japan. The situation there is clear and very easy for all to understand. Why not here too?

Its a measure of the level of thinking here in the UK Z-owning community that I will be taken to task for pointing this out. Emperor's New Clothes!

 

[datsun dave]

OK alan i get your point, so lets say you have a small crash in your ZG but can not find a original Nissan ZG front end, by using a non-original parts will your original ZG be only a 240Z with a ZG kit ?.
TASTEFULL i think that it is up to each Z owner what TASTEFULL is there is no book that we all have to go.
I have total repect for you alan and your knowledge but some times you sound like a man on a mission

 

[datsun dave]

Alan I can also make you up some "replica" badges you can stick on your 432 wings just so people dont get the wrong idea and that you are trying to pull the wool over.

 

[Albrecht]

.....so lets say you have a small crash in your ZG but can not find a original Nissan ZG front end, by using a non-original parts will your original ZG be only a 240Z with a ZG kit?

Dave,
The theoretical situation you put forward there has already happened to fellow genuine ZG owners in Japan. In fact, there are at least three such cars in the Japanese club that I'm a proud member of ( 'Club S30' ). Funnily enough, we were discussing this scenario a couple of years ago at one of the Sagamiko meetings;

Those three genuine ZGs have all been repaired in different ways. One of them was expertly pieced-together again using the shattered original panels ( like Humpty Dumpty ), one was repaired using genuine second-hand ZG panels, and the other was restored using the accurate and high quality replica parts manufactured by Marugen Shokai.

But all three left the factory as genuine ZGs, and - as I mentioned before - none of us can do anything to change that fact. The situation regarding their originality - or lack of - is another issue altogether, isn't it? That's not what we are thrashing out here.

........by using a non-original parts will your original ZG be only a 240Z with a ZG kit ?

To clarify: Nothing I could do to my ZG would change the fact that it left the factory as a genuine factory-built ZG. As I said before, I could take all the genuine ZG-specific parts off of it and put 'standard' 240Z parts on in their place. It would then no longer look like a factory ZG - but it would STILL be a ZG nonetheless. This is - in my mind at least - all quite simple.

By the same token, none of us can change a standard UK-market 'HS30' into an 'HS30-H'-spec Fairlady 240ZG simply by adding parts to it.

We shouldn't be treating these factory model types and codes so frivolously. We should be protecting their integrity by using them accurately and appropriately.

TASTEFULL i think that it is up to each Z owner what TASTEFULL is there is no book that we all have to go.

Point taken, but I was referring specifically to the situation regarding 'replicas' of genuine factory models. There are several cars here in the UK that wear the 'ZG' nomenclature but are nothing of the sort. If they were accurate replicas of factory cars ( or even factory race cars ) then they might arguably be using the term with some kind of artistic license. However, in almost all cases they bear as much resemblance to the genuine article as an inverted pond liner.

That's only in my opinion, of course

I have total repect for you alan and your knowledge but some times you sound like a man on a mission

Nobody else seems to realise that the mission is necessary. Somebody's got to stick up for historical accuracy and the integrity of the factory product. Looks like I'm on my own with that most of the time, but it doesn't bother me. It just tends to confirm the level we are at with these cars in this country.

 

[Albrecht]

Alan I can also make you up some "replica" badges you can stick on your 432 wings just so people dont get the wrong idea and that you are trying to pull the wool over.

Dave, I'm building a 'replica' remember? It needs to look like the real thing in order to qualify as a replica. That doesn't mean it needs to have 'replica' written all over it. It does mean however that I have no right to imply that it is the real thing when writing or talking about it. This is all quite clear cut and easy to understand if you take a little time to think about it.





Are you quite sure that you are getting the point here? The car in question here doesn't look anything like a genuine factory 240ZG, and therefore I think it has no right whatsoever to be called a "240ZG replica" ( or "240Z-G replica" ) let alone the straight-faced cheek of calling it a "240ZG" in writing - as it has been on this thread. By somebody who really ought to know better, no less.

 

[datsun dave]

Thank you for a honest reply

Please tell more about about what level we should be going for in UK and how we rate worldwide in the Z world.

Do others think that we bastardize the Z in the UK and are we looked down on ?

 

[Mr.F]

I have no problem with your argument Alan, but I'm not going to make the paragraph of distiction every time I have to refer to a UK 240Z which has been fitted at some time in the past with a fibreglass front end which bears a striking resemblance (at least in the top section) to a set of panels fitted to Zs which we never had in the UK and that the Japanese market saw fit to describe as ZG.
The panels in question were first marketed in the UK as a G-Nose conversion and were publically advertised as such by the Z Centre. The time to take action against this apparent sacrilege would have been then not now. The same company has gone on to produce and market a Mk.2 G-nose kit, the upper portion of which is in component parts where the moulds were derived from original ZG panels. If the quality were deemed to be sufficiently good, then these panels would probably be acceptable repair parts for a damaged genuine ZG. You know that I know fitting them to a 240Z does not make the car a 240ZG (I think 240Z-G is just fine if you force me), but there is the simple matter of convenience of reference and certainly no implication that the car is genuine or even a replica. Only you seem to see that implication.
The style of wheel arch extension seen on a genuine 240ZG has been frequently copied and is currently available in a variety of materials - regularly marketed as ZG arches or ZG flares. The U.K. owners who have fitted them are not deluding themselves that they have suddenly created a 240ZG; they appreciate the style. For sure, they will regularly describe them in conversation, e-mails, posts on this forum, text messages to their mates and so on as "ZG flares" - are you going to take action every time they do that on the forum? There is no harm or disrespect intended!
The Z Centre went on to adapt its ZG moulds to produce G-nose style parts to fit the 280ZX, a model designation that will probably engender even more shivers of disgust. It doesn't alter the fact that it is out there in the marketplace, often described as a 280ZXG and, as far as I am aware, unique to the U.K.
It is true that U.K. Z and ZX owners are guilty of long term bastardisation of our cars - after all, the Club was started by a man who had performed all sorts of extreme surgery on his 260Z, so why should his disciples not follow in his footsteps? The U.K. market is not the same as the Japanese market, nor the same as the American market - the historical influences of Eddie Miller, Samuri, Janspeed and others make us what we are. There is a faction which aspire to Japanese ideals and I commend and respect that, but to use the term 240ZG (or -G) to describe a car that is patently not an original is not the crime you imply.

 

[Albrecht]

I have no problem with your argument Alan, but I'm not going to make the paragraph of distiction every time I have to refer to a UK 240Z which has been fitted at some time in the past with a fibreglass front end which bears a striking resemblance (at least in the top section) to a set of panels fitted to Zs which we never had in the UK and that the Japanese market saw fit to describe as ZG.

Mike,
I think this is simpler than you are making it sound. The distinction is quite clear. We should NOT be calling a car a "240ZG" ( or even "240Z-G" ) unless it is a true factory-built 'HS30-H' model. No ifs, no buts, no get-out clauses or grey areas. It either is or it isn't.

Next up is a true 'replica' - with the necessary accuracy that term implies. It really ought to look, fit and work in the same way as the original, and be constructed in the same way. Such a car would arguably have the right to be called a '240ZG replica' - but not a "240ZG".

Seeing as the car in question fits with neither of the above, how can you call it a "240ZG" ( or "240Z-G" ) and still keep a straight face? I'd like to see you stand in front of such a car and tell the original designer of the ZG ( and the chief designer of the S30-series Z ) Mr Yoshihiko Matsuo that he is looking at a "240ZG". He'd just laugh at you.

The panels in question were first marketed in the UK as a G-Nose conversion and were publically advertised as such by the Z Centre. The time to take action against this apparent sacrilege would have been then not now.

"G-Nose conversion" is another thing altogether, isn't it Mike? I can't take issue with that kind of sales blurb unless the seller implies that fitting such parts would make the car a true '240ZG'. If I saw them do that I would take issue with it. Hopefully they would not be so misguided, and hopefully neither would their customers.

The same company has gone on to produce and market a Mk.2 G-nose kit, the upper portion of which is in component parts where the moulds were derived from original ZG panels.

Well Mike, I've certainly not seen any aftermarket parts being sold ( or fitted ) in the UK that look anything like the genuine factory components. All I have seen are parts that look like the generic 'jelly-mould' one piece, two or three piece kits, the like of which are sold by companies such as MSA in the US.

If the moulds were indeed "derived from original ZG panels" then I'd be very interested to know the provenance and history of the original panels that the moulds were allegedly taken from.. I'm all ears. You might have to excuse me while I go and buy a large bag of salt, though . I tend to have a default level of cynicism where advertising blurbs are concerned.

You know that I know fitting them to a 240Z does not make the car a 240ZG (I think 240Z-G is just fine if you force me), but there is the simple matter of convenience of reference and certainly no implication that the car is genuine or even a replica.

Sorry, but this strikes me as an easy way out of taking responsibility. The fact is that you are an influential figure in what might be called the 'Z scene' in this country, and you really ought to lead by example on such issues. I myself can see the distinction between the car that you are calling a "240ZG" on this thread and a real factory-built example, but others obviously find it a little harder. Adding that letter 'G' on there is - in my opinion - the first step in creating needless confusion. I don't think we should use these factory model names so carelessly.

Only you seem to see that implication.

Its not only me, Mike. I was working with a small crew from 'Nostalgic Hero' magazine here in the UK last week, and we had several conversations about certain UK cars and their specifications. Its a pity you were not privy to their comments.

The style of wheel arch extension seen on a genuine 240ZG has been frequently copied and is currently available in a variety of materials - regularly marketed as ZG arches or ZG flares. The U.K. owners who have fitted them are not deluding themselves that they have suddenly created a 240ZG; they appreciate the style. For sure, they will regularly describe them in conversation, e-mails, posts on this forum, text messages to their mates and so on as "ZG flares" - are you going to take action every time they do that on the forum? There is no harm or disrespect intended!

"Take action"?........
Makes it sound like I'm instructing my lawyers

The ZG-style 'Overfenders' ( as the factory called them ) are - I agree - very popular these days. I have never seen any owner or anybody else for that matter describe a car retro-fitted with such items as a "240ZG". If they did, I would probably point the error out to them if the opportunity arose. And I would be right, wouldn't I?

I think you are blurring the differences between identifying replica or aftermarket parts ( or even genuine factory parts ) with the model codes and nomenclature of genuine factory-built models of car. That's the crux of the matter here as far as I'm concerned. If you call a car a "240ZG" it had damned well better be the real thing, don't you think? That's specifically what I take issue with. Everything else is just background noise.

The Z Centre went on to adapt its ZG moulds to produce G-nose style parts to fit the 280ZX, a model designation that will probably engender even more shivers of disgust. It doesn't alter the fact that it is out there in the marketplace, often described as a 280ZXG and, as far as I am aware, unique to the U.K.

Well, seeing as the factory never produced anything called a "280ZXG" I find it hard to come up with any objection whatsoever ( apart perhaps from the personal and subjective standpoint of taste..... ). There is no chance of misrepresentation, or inference of association with any official factory product, so what harm?
This situation is not the same thing at all, is it?

It is true that U.K. Z and ZX owners are guilty of long term bastardisation of our cars.............the historical influences of Eddie Miller, Samuri, Janspeed and others make us what we are.

Funny you should mention 'Samuri', as I was just thinking about a theoretical scenario to offer as a comparison:
If I were to modify a standard UK market car in the style of Spike Anderson and 'Samuri Conversions', and then tell people that the car was a "Samuri" ( and even put it in writing ) - then I feel sure I would have people telling me ( quite correctly ) that the car was nothing of the sort. They could quite fairly accuse me of using the 'Samuri' name fraudulently. I'd expect the owners of the 'real thing' to pick me up on the point, not pat me on the back and offer encouragement. I can't imagine them sympathising with me that it is indeed terribly tiresome to keep having to write "style" or "replica" after 'Samuri'............

These cars have been modified ( use "bastardised" if you wish ) according to taste and current fashion in every single market they were sold to. The UK is nothing different in that respect. I don't have any problem with that whatsoever, but let's not get confused between owner-modified cars and official factory product. We should have been on top of that long ago.

There is a faction which aspire to Japanese ideals and I commend and respect that, but to use the term 240ZG (or -G) to describe a car that is patently not an original is not the crime you imply.

As I said before, I'd like to see you say that to Yoshihiko Matsuo and his team.

There's no excuse. Just Do The Right Thing.

 

[Arkwright]

so will these ZG tyres fit Phils car or not, if so from where can he get them?

 

[datsun dave]

so will these ZG tyres fit Phils car or not, if so from where can he get them?

Japan

 

[tch911]

so will these ZG tyres fit Phils car or not, if so from where can he get them?

I'd forgotten we were even talking about tyres. What sensational banter. There was me getting bored about people nerding on about P-Zero's (I don't know what's wrong with a good old pair of £30 Matadors![Well for the back end of my V8 anyway!]) and suddenly it all kicks off!!

 

[Tony 260Z]

Indeed.