Watanabes

[datsfun]

Does sound like a good price but the tried and tested Rota's are only a little over half that.

That's because many folk will tell you that Rota are copies. Copies of what?

FWIW the original 8 spoke design pre-dates Watanabes, which at one stage must have been in Rota's shoes ? .

 

[SeanDezart]

That's ok, they'd go well with my copy-cat 240Z...

 

[Albrecht]

That's because many folk will tell you that Rota are copies. Copies of what?

Let's talk straight here. Anybody with a clue can tell that ROTA market their wheels riding on the history and reputation of whatever it is they have cribbed. In the case of the 8-spoke design, that's clearly the R.S. Watanabe 'Hachi Spo' design and its derivatives, which themselves - as has been stated - are rooted in designs that came before them such as the Kobe Seiko 8-spoke which was made for Nissan, the Minilite, the BRM/EMPI 8 spoke and - likely the design which influenced them all - the Brabham 8 spoke (and nature got there first anyway...).

FWIW the original 8 spoke design pre-dates Watanabes, which at one stage must have been in Rota's shoes ? .

Key point here being that Watanabe never marketed their wheels as anything other than their own, with their own race-bred kudos and engineering/manufacturing quality. Contrast this with ROTA (and others...) who clearly market their wheels as far cheaper versions of designs associated with long-established brands. People who can't afford/justify or simply don't need the quality of a forged wheel or a precision cast magnesium wheel can buy the ROTA 'knock off' for the same look at a fraction of the price. It's not a secret. It's ROTA's stock-in-trade. Nothing wrong with it as long as no patent, intellectual property or copyright/trade mark has been infringed. The evidence of the 'cheaper alternative for the same look' thinking can be seen on this very thread.

And you get what you pay for. If you think a cast aluminium version of a forged or precision cast magnesium wheel is 'the same thing' then more fool you.

I have no problem with ROTA (I own some of their wheels myself) up to the point that they use faked Japanese industry testing standards and certification for some of their wheels, which they have been known to do. At that point my sympathy ends.

 

[SeanDezart]

I want Watanabes but not because it's a brand name - I 'just' like the look and I run a Japanese car - it seems apparent to run Japanese wheels - a bit snobbish but there you go !

BUT.....I can't afford them............yet !

 

[datsfun]

I run a Japanese car - it seems apparent to run Japanese wheels - a bit snobbish but there you go !
!

Just as well that you didn't end up buying Pirelli or Michelin tyres otherwise that would have messed up the theme...no?

How far is this snobbish theme going to extend? Will you be binning the Vitaloni mirrors as well

 

[SeanDezart]

How far is this snobbish theme going to extend? Will you be binning the Vitaloni mirrors as well

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/887807694.htm?ca=12_s

 

[datsfun]

Nothing wrong with it as long as no patent, intellectual property or copyright/trade mark has been infringed. The evidence of the 'cheaper alternative for the same look' thinking can be seen on this very thread.

And you get what you pay for. If you think a cast aluminium version of a forged or precision cast magnesium wheel is 'the same thing' then more fool you.

I have no problem with ROTA (I own some of their wheels myself) up to the point that they use faked Japanese industry testing standards and certification for some of their wheels, which they have been known to do. At that point my sympathy ends.

Hopefully even the average Joe is able to deduce that the quality between the aluminium and magnesium offerings is vastly different and hence it's certainly a case of you get what you pay for. I find the whole scenario similar to walking to Euro car parts and being presented with 3 separate versions of the same part. Usually genuine OEM, followed by a Euro part and lastly one made somewhere in Far East. Buyer decides usually based on price and function of part.

Legal counsel at RS Watanabe or any other manufacturer for that matter would be having a field day if infringements have occurred given the size of this market. One wonders what impediments they face in pursuing such action?

 

[datsfun]

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/887807694.htm?ca=12_s

Well done.

I will be on the look out when she re-appears in latest guise to inspect the JDM'ness of your build.

 

[Albrecht]

Legal counsel at RS Watanabe or any other manufacturer for that matter would be having a field day if infringements have occurred given the size of this market. One wonders what impediments they face in pursuing such action?

Here's a rhetorical question: Do ROTA have an official distributor/sales network in Japan that can be pursued legally?

There's your answer.

 

[zNathan]

Think it may be worth mentioning (as I'm assuming Viper is after wheels for mainly street use??) that magnesium wheels wouldn't be good due to their fragility and high maintenance. Anybody disagree?

Anybody know the differences in manufacturing process / alloy between Rota aluminium wheels and Watanabe aluminium wheels? Let's say 2014/2015 production for arguments sake... I've found a description from Rota themselves but not sure if I'd trust it, especially from what Alan has been saying lol

Apparently Rota use an A356.2 aluminum alloy...... Can't find anything for Watanabe

 

[Albrecht]

Think it may be worth mentioning (as I'm assuming Viper is after wheels for mainly street use??) that magnesium wheels wouldn't be good due to their fragility and high maintenance. Anybody disagree?

I think vipergts has got his wheel situation sorted by now (one year later)?

Yes, I disagree. It depends on design. There are aluminium wheels that are arguably more fragile than magnesium wheels, because of their design. Generally speaking, if a wheel is designed to be made in magnesium, its design and construction will be different than for a wheel designed to be made from aluminium.

Out there on the market there are cast aluminium 'copies' of wheels which were originally designed to be made from magnesium. Unless they are re-engineered/redesigned, that's a serious compromise.

Much of the above is academic for normal street use, but marking wheels with Japanese industry testing standards marks when they haven't been anywhere near Japanese industry testing is a serious matter.

 

[datsfun]

Here's a rhetorical question: Do ROTA have an official distributor/sales network in Japan that can be pursued legally?

There's your answer.

I suspect the answer lies in your question above ? I expect that any IP, patents, know how etc is either confined to "Japan" or has time expired. Otherwise legal action can be taken anywhere on the globe surely irrespective of whether there is a local the dealer network/ HQ.

The mis-use of Japanese industry testing standards marking stamps etc is just plain wrong and criminal.

 

[zNathan]

Haha fallen prey to the thread revival mistake...

Thanks for the response - what do you think about that in terms of the Watanabe RS design? - they do magnesium and also aluminium. Magnesium still suitable for general use?

Was honestly considering some Watanabes last year but finally managed to find some Techno Phantoms instead! Who knows in the future though...

Not trying to condescend in any way, just curious - how do you know they haven't been approved by Japanese testing standards? Have the Japanese confirmed this themselves?

 

[s2k_adz]

That's because many folk will tell you that Rota are copies. Copies of what?

FWIW the original 8 spoke design pre-dates Watanabes, which at one stage must have been in Rota's shoes ? .

So you'd be happy driving a Datsun 240Z Kit car. Made from bits of a Ford Sierra. It looks exactly the same as an original Datsun right?? And you bought it for half the price so its all good?

Personally, I wouldn't run Rota wheels on my car. Its like wearing hooky Nike trainers bought from a look looky man on holiday.

They might be quality, they might look really nice, but their entire range is based on knocking off other wheel designs which I find really frustrating. If they made some original designs Id be all for it!

 

[datsfun]

So you'd be happy driving a Datsun 240Z Kit car. Made from bits of a Ford Sierra. It looks exactly the same as an original Datsun right?? And you bought it for half the price so its all good?

Yep, I dont have a problem with that at all..
...so long as I knew that I was buying a Kit car and not duped into thinking I was buying an original Datsun.

They might be quality, they might look really nice, but their entire range is based on knocking off other wheel designs which I find really frustrating. If they made some original designs Id be all for it!

So long as what they are doing is legal I can live with that and I agree they need to invest in their own designs and extend their product range given that they now have market penetration

 

[richiep]

You can see why they are successful though - some of the designs they replicate are discontinued or are difficult to get hold of in many of the markets Rota have a presence in. Many of the old-skool JDM designs are of course only available from Japan - and cost significantly more.

It's worth noting that the Rota designs tend to incorporate enough variation to distinguish them from the real thing - obviously as a means of covering themselves legally. E.g. compare the size of the central hub area of a Watanabe R-type with that of a Rota RKR. The Rota has a smaller radius and thus looks like it has slightly longer spokes.

Wheel design is generally quite incestuous. For example, internet wheel critics deride Rota for the BM8/Shakotan being a knock-off of the Hayashi Racing Street. Of course, the Hayashi is a knock-off of the Italian-made Campagnolo 40802 (as fitted to De Tomasos)...

I think people get far too bent out of shape about this topic tbh. (although Rota being naughty as described above is a different matter that deserves some flak).

 

[SeanDezart]

Are we talking about the 'JW' emblem on the wheels? I see this on alotand wonder if Rota isn't the only one plaigarising....in any case, perhaps its only to further replicate the JDM look and doesn't imply conformance.....?

 

[datsfun]

Wheel design is generally quite incestuous. For example, internet wheel critics deride Rota for the BM8/Shakotan being a knock-off of the Hayashi Racing Street. Of course, the Hayashi is a knock-off of the Italian-made Campagnolo 40802 (as fitted to De Tomasos)...

Oh I had forgotten about the above.

Maybe the Italian lawyers gave up trying to pursue this action...

 

[SeanDezart]

Strange that you haven't mentioned the other Watanabe 'cheap' knock-offs - Atara Pisangs.....

 

[SeanDezart]

I will be on the look out when she re-appears in latest guise to inspect the JDM'ness of your build.

Well, I've lost points already because I won't be putting on advanced front wing indicators !

My empahsis is on driveability and not internet photogenics BUT I hope that you will all appreciate its good (well, at least my) taste......and if not rip it to threads on an open forum. !

Hopefully she'll show and go.