Southern UK 240Z needed for Classic & Sports Car Photo Shoot SOON please!!

M

Motornoter

Forum User
Hi Alan

I do understand your frustration and I agree that the S30-series has suffered a disproportionate amount of mis-reporting both in books and magazine articles over the years - quite remarkably so for a large-volume, relatively recent car. You might expect misinformation on a rare 1920s car, for example, but not on such a popular model. I have a 'Datsun Z Complete Story' book on my shelves and when researching this article, found myself liberally correcting it as I went along...

I hope you won't be disappointed by the article, but you must be realistic and understand that this is a Buying Guide, aimed at English-speaking readers of a magazine whose biggest markets are the UK and north America. Because it is a UK magazine, readers understand that price information is relevant to the UK market but that background information will be given primarily for the major markets. It is not intended to be an in-depth historical analysis of the car - though there is no reason why an article of that kind should not be published in the near future, supplementing the price guide - you'll have to lobby the Editor for that. I am aware that the Japanese-market models were substantially different and that is referred to in the article, but I think the chances of any of our readers actually finding a Japanese-market car for sale in their locality are extremely small, so I don't think we can justify detailed coverage of them in a Buying Guide. In short, a Buying Guide is not aimed at someone like yourself, who already knows the model inside out, and you cannot expect to read anything you don't know in it - the best we can hope is that you find it accurate!

Incidentally I think you do the Japanese a disservice by suggesting that they did not know in advance that the S30 would be a big seller in USA. My understanding is that they were clear from the start where their target market was, and they were right.

Malcolm
 
STEVE BURNS

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
Thank you Malcolm for your reply to Alans post
Alan over the years is the guy who has worked tirelessly to try and get the motoring press to be a lot more informed on the S30 and dispel a lot of the shall we say misinformation that was bandied about and it is down mostly to his efforts that it has all progressed this far but there is still a long way to go

Also as far as I am aware you are the first of the motoring press who have bothered to visit A Zcar site in an attempt to get somewhere near the correct info on the ZS and thank you for taking your your time and efforts to do this
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Malcolm,
Thank you for taking my frustrated grumblings in good humour.

Motornoter said:
I hope you won't be disappointed by the article, but you must be realistic and understand that this is a Buying Guide, aimed at English-speaking readers of a magazine whose biggest markets are the UK and north America.
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Yes, I quite understand the scope and natural limitations of a 'Buying Guide' type article. It's just that - when I've seen such articles on the early Z in the past - they seem to be a bit of a hotchpotch. I often feel that if I were newcomer hoping to learn something about the '240Z' ( for example ) with purchase in mind, I might come away somewhat more confused by what I had just read.

As I've already mentioned, the north American market models were really quite different in driving character to the other 'Export' market models ( it's not just about RHD vs LHD ) as they were more softly damped and sprung, with thinner ARBs ( none on the back... ) and with a different ( slower... ) steering rack ratio. I've never seen a Buying Guide article mention these differences as far as I can remember, but I do remember articles which have mixed them up or not even mentioned them at all...

The standard 4-speed trans and matching diff ratio of the north American market cars also makes them feel like they were designed for driving great distances in straight lines at low rpms. Contrast this with the close-ratio 5-speed and 3.9 diff ratio which was offered as standard equipment in all other markets, and you start to see a big gap emerging ( and it's not just the gap between gears on that 4-speed ). They are quite different in feel, quite different in driving character. I think this should be pointed out.

Motornoter said:
I am aware that the Japanese-market models were substantially different and that is referred to in the article, but I think the chances of any of our readers actually finding a Japanese-market car for sale in their locality are extremely small, so I don't think we can justify detailed coverage of them in a Buying Guide.
Click to expand...

Fair enough ( although I have three Japanese market Zs myself ) I can see that they might not need to be in a Buyers Guide per se, but at least mentioning that they did exist, that they were in no way any kind of "afterthought", and that Japan was - of course - their second biggest single market ( people seem to forget this ) would be nice. They are always brushed aside, or damned with faint praise, when in fact I would argue ( and so would the designers and engineers ) that the Japanese market models were the most interesting and most pure iterations of the line. Whilst the north American, UK, Australian, NZ and mainland European markets essentially had just one model to choose from in the 1969~1973 period, the Japanese market had seven clearly defined variants of Z to choose from. And yet we often read that the Z would not exist at all had it not been for Yutaka Katayama and the USA market ( which is complete nonsense ).

Motornoter said:
Incidentally I think you do the Japanese a disservice by suggesting that they did not know in advance that the S30 would be a big seller in USA. My understanding is that they were clear from the start where their target market was, and they were right.
Click to expand...

I think you haven't quite understood the point I was making about the USA market. Of course Nissan were targeting the north American ( specifically USA ) market for their largest potential of sales, but that was also the case with almost all of their other mainstream models ( such as the little pickups, Sunnies and Bluebirds ) which outsold the Z hugely in that same USA market, but nobody stresses that these were "designed for" the USA market in the way that they say the Z was. The fact is that NONE of them were specifically conceived, designed, engineered and manufactured solely for the north American market. That's the point I'm trying to get at: The misconception that the S30-series Z range at launch ( what everybody simply calls the '240Z' ) was dreamed up "for" the USA. It was not.

The huge sales figures achieved in the USA did take Nissan Japan by surprise. In fact, the S30-series Z was costed at around 1000 cars per month production ( even though Chief Designer Yoshihiko Matsuo thought sales of over 3000 per month were achievable ) and the demand from north America did take Nissan by surprise. Nobody is disputing that north America was always seen as the territory with the biggest sales potential ( and selling the cars there with a 'Pile 'em High, Sell 'em Cheap' philosophy helped ) but that did NOT completely dominate the styling and engineering of the cars. Sales figures do not tell the story of these cars any more than they do with other cars from the likes of Austin-Healey, MG, Triumph, Jaguar, Porsche, VW or even Ferrari.

Biggest mistake - to my mind anyway - is to ignore the fact that the S30-series Z was conceived, designed, engineered and manufactured as a family of models at launch. If you don't look at the family of models as a whole, then you cannot hope to understand any single member of the family if you view it on its own.



If you can avoid mentioning the dreaded Goertz ( 'The Lying Count' ) and put the involvement of Yutaka Katayama into its proper context ( effectively just cheering the project on from the other side of the world, with very little of the direct input that USA-based propaganda / advertising would have us believe ) then you'll get a pat on the back from me. It would be nice to see Chief Designer Yoshihiko Matsuo mentioned, along with the likes of Yoshida, Tamura, Chiba, Uemura, Benitani, Kamahara - the people who were really responsible for how the car looked and worked - getting a little time in the limelight. Not much space in a Buying Guide type feature of course, but please bear it in mind when the subject of the S30-series Z comes up in the future.

Cheers,
Alan T.
 
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M

Motornoter

Forum User
Hi Alan

Thanks, some very useful info there! I didn't know that the suspension and steering were 'softer' for USA, with no rear anti-roll bar - does that apply from the start of 240Z sales there, or was it a gradual process?

That apart, I think we've got most of the story to your satisfaction, though inevitably with not as much detail as in an ideal world!

All the best
Malcolm
 
M

Motornoter

Forum User
Hi Sean
Thanks for the links - very interesting. If Zs are really that cheap in France, I won't consider going to the trouble and expense of importing one from USA and paying duty, VAT etc on import, I'll pop over to France and buy one!!
Re the Price Guide, I wrote before - "Because it is a UK magazine, readers understand that price information is relevant to the UK market but that background information will be given primarily for the major markets" - we won't be quoting prices in USA, sorry.
Malcolm
 
R

rallymanDP

Well-Known Forum User
Realistically, Sean, it is difficult to sell even a good 280ZX 2+2 in the UK for over the £4,000 mark.
This is one area that the Mags have got about right in their Price Guides
Yes, you see them advertised for more than that, but they rarely actually sell at much more - though I'm sure that in the past, there have been a few exceptions that we will hear about soon enough.....

The demand for them is pretty low, and even though there aren't too many good ones left surviving, you can wait a long time to sell one for decent money. Of course, the Targa tops are more desireable, and the autos are pretty sluggish in terms of performance, but nice for gentle cruising of the old fashioned variety.

Are you after one, perhaps ?
 
R

rallymanDP

Well-Known Forum User
Apologies - old age & poor eyesight made me read Sean's post as a 280ZX & not a 280Z.

As Wyn says, are there any in the UK ( RHD ones ) ?
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Motornoter said:
I didn't know that the suspension and steering were 'softer' for USA, with no rear anti-roll bar - does that apply from the start of 240Z sales there, or was it a gradual process?
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Yes, I don't think the north American market got a rear anti-roll bar until almost three years into production. Up until that point, the HLS30U models didn't even have the mounting brackets welded to the body - so you couldn't even fit a factory bar if you wanted to. The aftermarket had to step up to fill the gap.

In fact, the very earliest of those north American market HLS30U models ( arriving in the USA in the first months of 1970 ) are witness to some of the to-ing and fro-ing between Nissan Japan and NMC USA about the final specs of the north American market models. The retail price had been set deliberately cheap by NMC USA, and Nissan Japan initially intended to supply a fairly 'stripped down' car for that price ( hence the 4-spd transmission, no rear window defroster and no carpets in the earliest HLS30Us ) and had originally intended to supply with a blanking plate in place of both the clock and the radio, but relented. It was probably only the economy of scale - and the lobbying of Yutaka Katayama ( some of his only 'real' direct input on the car ) - that made them rethink.

At the very same time ( in fact earlier, from Oct/Nov 1969 ), Japan was getting a choice of four distinct models ( basic S30-S 'Fairlady Z', deluxe S30 'Fairlady Z-L', deluxe performance model PS30 'Fairlady Z432' and super lightweight 'race' model PS30-SB 'Fairlady Z432-R' ) and a wide range of options, including a nice range of performance upgrades. All other markets had a choice of, er, one model....

I've never seen a full road test / comparison article in the UK press that covered the Japanese market models. I guarantee you that a road test in a genuine Fairlady Z432 would be an enlightening experience. Please file that thought for a future article.
 
SeanDezart

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Qestion provocateur.....(for a change :rolleyes:) but it highlights that it is a real minefield to produce a buyers' guide for these cars - the North American market is different to that here, heaven know, the prices are different enough after merely 22 miles of water heading south and they explode when you reach Portugal which had its' fair share of cars imported at the time.

Most price guides are based upon auction values attained by Zs over here (Ebay excepted) come up for auction so rarely - I can think of three in the last 12 months (which incidentally give our cars a VERY healthy average price) that they serve no purpose whatsoever being wildly inaccurate and out of date.

I'm not convinced that such a general price guide will be of much use to a potentiel buyer - best advice is to log on here, join the club, speak to and meet owners, have someone go with you to view sellers and decide upon either a UK or import car (I don't state US import because there's nothing to stop someone buying one from elsewhere, Japan included !

I agree with what you said about it being astonishing that such a well-sold and popular car should have been for so long mis-representated in the press but as The Count would imply, years of lazy journalism (small amount of arrogance in there too perhaps that someone knows more than the actual owners, Club and passionates) and copy and paste have taken their toll.

Responsible journalism and a willing ear can overcome - we helped with a French article in a Japanese car magazine which I'm proud to say is the most accurate text yet in French, better than two books published in the last two years (thanks again Count for your input).

ps : can anyone really state how many Zs (ZXs too) were imported into each country (which may help in a guide) :

Source: - As stated in the "DATSUN 280ZX" book published in 1978 by Nissan Motor Company.

USA CanadaAustralia Great BritainOthers 197016,215 1201319 23 197133,684 3440894 26489 197252,628 4020362 549494 197345,588 2537783 1,114430 197440,172 1370442 1291 1974 2+29,499 766599 320153 197540,216 1153198 2023 1975 2+211,594 329742 139493 197645,766 876385
07 1976 2+213,792 3511615 444454 197754,594 100598 31263
If anyone would care to send me a copy of the forthcoming magazine, I'd be grateful (unless the article will appear in the French issue later, in which case contact me please to embellish it ;) along with the help of Nissan here). Thanks.
 
SeanDezart

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Well, that came out wrong didn't it - I'll try again later.............

BTW, ZX import figues would be useful too (yes ZX for the vision-impaired) !
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
SeanDezart said:
Source: - As stated in the "DATSUN 280ZX" book published in 1978 by Nissan Motor Company.

USA CanadaAustralia Great BritainOthers 197016,215 1201319 23 197133,684 3440894 26489 197252,628 4020362 549494 197345,588 2537783 1,114430 197440,172 1370442 1291 1974 2+29,499 766599 320153 197540,216 1153198 2023 1975 2+211,594 329742 139493 197645,766 876385
07 1976 2+213,792 3511615 444454 197754,594 100598 31263
Click to expand...

Sean ( and anyone else ),

PLEASE don't use the 'Datsun 280ZX' book as any kind of historical reference material on the S30-series Z. It was published as a sales promotion tool for the new S130-series Z, and is best used as a 'coffee table' type decoration.

The production figures are wildly inaccurate.
 
SeanDezart

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Thanks....I take 'em all with a pinch of salt now my Count - there's no escaping a concious state - no turning back the clock - once one is sceptic, one cannot retreat into the ignorant bliss of "made for USA by Katayama, copied from Porsches by your namesake, using a Bluebrid engine with two pistons added"......

And whilst we're trying to avoid the "mal-entendus" (errors of interpretation if you prefer) they're also not only inaccurate figures but export figures and not production figures.
 
R

rallymanDP

Well-Known Forum User
I am led to believe that it is officially due out on the 2nd October, Jonathan. which effectively means any day now on the Newstands.
 
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