RB head on L-Gata

So these words don't give you a clue?
Aprilia forum Gear-driven-cams-vs-chain-driven

Thanks Sherlock EXTRA:D

its 11 posts on an aprilia from, which doesn't really say much? I'm guessing the conversation might have been prompted by the fact aprilia were found to be using gear driven cams in their racebikes, which they weren't holomagated for at the time? Its caused a bit of a stink. They did it for improved reliability and performance from some of their range.

do you agree?
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
I guess there's such a thing as *too much* food for thought, but I wonder of there's any mileage in a double timing case/front cover - as in Nissan's S20?

A good picture saves a poor explanation, so see below. S20 used both chain drive (two actually, one for the cams and one for the oil pump) and a straight-cut gear drive for the distributor. Later S20s switched to full straight-cut gear drive for the oil pump. Cam chain drive had one idler gear and a hand-adjusted (pat of service maintenance) jockey-wheel type chain tensioner. It was all mounted in nice bearings inserted into the two-piece front cover casting.

Timing Cases-1.jpg Timing Cases-2.jpg Service-Shuho-S20-4.jpg 70-manual-S20-1.JPG 70-manual-S20-5.JPG
 
imagine working all that out on a drawing board ! the blessings of having CAD these days,

Imagine how many attempts were made on castings etc to get them right. On the other twin cam heads, did they just start of gear driven or end up there after starting with other methods.

Alan is that where KEW got their idea, or inspiration from for the manual chain tensioner they have?
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
On the other twin cam heads, did they just start of gear driven or end up there after starting with other methods.

Griffith Borgeson's superb book 'The Classic Twin-Cam Engine' covers this in depth. The very first twin-cam engines - the 1912 Peugeot L3 and L76 fours - had their camshafts driven by spur gears with a take-off on the front of the crankshaft. Running through Borgeson's list of twin-cam designs in the following years (1913 Peugeot, 1914 ALFA, Peugeot, Delage, Humber & Sunbeam, 1915 Frontenac & Peugeot, 1916 Maxwell, Premier & Sunbeam, 1919 Ballot and on and on) they are all Spur gear-driven. You don't see a chain-driven DOHC until the 1920 Miller, 1924 Fronty-Ford and 1929 Duesenberg. In fact chain-driven DOHC seemed to have been a exclusively American thing until used on the 1934 Lagonda 'Rapier' and the ALFA Romeo 6c 2300 in 1934.

I would imagine making strong, accurate & reliable chains was part of the problem, but apart from noise and a very slight cost in the power taken to drive them I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with gear-driven camshafts. Belts are now pretty much ubiquitous (materials technology has almost caught up) but funnily enough the 3.0 V6 Dirty Diesel in my daily driver has chain-driven cams.

Alan is that where KEW got their idea, or inspiration from for the manual chain tensioner they have?

Mori san hinted to me that the 'chain inspection cover' on the front L-gata heads is a nice shape and position for a manually-adjustable jockey wheel (hint being that it's probably no accident) but if you look at the very first Nissan L-gata engine design (the 1964/65 'L20' six) you can see why the 'chain inspection cover' is part of the design:

L20-six-chain-1.jpg
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
This might sound mad and it will show my ignorance of these RB engines but:

If you ran a belt from the crankshaft pulley (where the fan belt would be) over a waterpump pulley and up to the head how far forward would the cam strockets have to be to be inline? So basically run the cam drive outside the current timing cover.
 

atomman

Club Member
This might sound mad and it will show my ignorance of these RB engines but:

If you ran a belt from the crankshaft pulley (where the fan belt would be) over a waterpump pulley and up to the head how far forward would the cam strockets have to be to be inline? So basically run the cam drive outside the current timing cover.

Not really an option, no where to put tensioners and the cam shafts would need to be extended etc etc,
 

atomman

Club Member
Thanks Alan . some nice details on the S2o I hadn't seen before ,

I'm still looking and modelling ideas in CAD , its good to have all these different takes on it to get idea's from,

The main issue is still that RB cams are longer than the L-gata one, and would have to machine away most of the top cam bearing support to get it anywhere near in line,

I've ordered a couple of bearings to mock up a chain drive for now ,

I also managed to get a RB20DET lower induction manifold that will help with sorting coolant from the head and can be modified with DCOE pattern mounts for the webers or ITB 's along the line
 

atomman

Club Member
Plan is to cut it where the red line is , obliviously a bit straighter though , machine it true then TiG on some DCOE mounting flanges,

IMG_20200522_170512_LI.jpg
 

jonbills

Membership Secretary
Site Administrator
I was going to to ask why its such a funny shape, but I suppose that won't matter once you cut it.
 

Mark N

Club Member
Thanks Alan . some nice details on the S2o I hadn't seen before ,

I'm still looking and modelling ideas in CAD , its good to have all these different takes on it to get idea's from,

The main issue is still that RB cams are longer than the L-gata one, and would have to machine away most of the top cam bearing support to get it anywhere near in line,

I've ordered a couple of bearings to mock up a chain drive for now ,

I also managed to get a RB20DET lower induction manifold that will help with sorting coolant from the head and can be modified with DCOE pattern mounts for the webers or ITB 's along the line

Would it be possible to minimise the amount of machining required on the cam bearings to a safe amount by fitting an 'XX'mm sandwich plate between the timing cover (similar to the S20 arrangement) and the block, complete with oil and water passages/ports using an OEM gasket on either side?
This sandwich plate would also give you a solid base for an idler/tensioner system if fabricated from a suitable material.
The bottom sprocket and oil pump drive could then be spaced forward by the same amount, keeping them in the same position relative to the front cover, retaining oil pump operation and distributor function if it is required.
The same 'XX'mm size of spacer would have to be fitted between the crank nose and crank damper as well as a longer crank bolt fitted.
The limit of dimension 'XX'mm would be determined by the amount of damper engagement you could safely lose.
Who knows, there may also be a couple of mm to be gained from trimming the oil pump drive.
 

atomman

Club Member
I cut up the RB inlet manifold yesterday ,
IMG_20200524_171452.jpgIMG_20200524_171452.jpgIMG_20200524_171415.jpg

I'm going to bolt it up to the bed on the miller when i go back to work and mill it flat and then cut out some DCOE flanges on the water jet and TiG them on but give me some idea of how long the inlet side will be and how much clearance i will have to the inner wing,

Hole centres between carb and inlet aren't that far off to wont be that much porting needed,
 

8658kv

Club Member
Hi Gary

great project as always.

Have you considered the clearance on a LHD drive car for the carbs? I guess you have to relocate the battery.
If you look at a Z432 the manifold looks non existent, still looks tight with trumpets, and that’s on a RHD car.
Looks very tight to have 40/45’s on a LHD, also do you think you will have any problems with the exhaust manifold?

Im assuming you’re going to fit in your car when running.

Steve
 
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