New engine !

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
I'm sorry - drag-racing is not relevant to this subject and your engine's hardly FIA homologated.
You really don't have a clue do you :rofl:

In the spirit of the thread
Heres a recent rolling road print out.

All_steel_3_0_pre_cam_change.JPG


Link to bigger image http://www.zclub.net/gallery/data/500/All_steel_3_0_pre_cam_change.JPG


Please note

1. Its in colour (helps with the context and multiple run overlays)
2. There is no tippex jiggery pokery on the curves (hmm)
3. Its backed up by real world performance data (1/4 mile times, 0-60 times, acceleration data etc and is comparable with like for like cars from around the world)

The two lines show a power and torque curve before and after some inlet trumpet changes
This was on a poorly matched cam profile, incorrect inlet trumpet lengths, unshielded headers on 97 octane fuel, we are booked in again in August to trial some more inlet trumpet mods, 99 octane etc, heat management, and the latest cam profile that we have been running..... should bring it closer to the 300 mark ;)

If anyones interested I am going to post up a technical write up on the engine (warts and all) so you can all make one :thumbs:

Sean, as far as your persistant labeling of certain cars "drag" this and "drag" that....change the record ehh, JP does just as much "drag racing" as me, Darren Stiles, Terry Taylor and Mick Brown the same, I don't see you having the same dig at them (I wonder why ehh:rolleyes:)
The only reason I even drag race is to provide reliable accurate data to base new modifications on......thats the bit I don't think you "get"
Surely you must do the same and have some telemetry on the GrpIV car to allow some continued development, or is it "blimey its getting hot again"

I was planning on running the car at Japfest 2 (last Sunday) unfortunately I had tickets to the grand prix
We are going to run the car at Donington before the end of the summer on a track day/afternoon once I have sorted some tyre issues out, previously on track its performed really well, (that was with a measly 250hp though).

Anyone else have any interesting dyno sheets.
 
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rallymanDP

Well-Known Forum User
Good Post, Steve.

And superb performance figures on the Graph. That's how I would expect the Torque curve from a well set-up Engine to progress. Interesting how it drops off at the high Revs just where the BHP is still going up.

I, for one, would love to hear about the Technical stuff going on to build your Engine - it's rare that someone who has spent so much time & effort is prepared to allow everyone else to share.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Yes - this is all interesting but this is Hendriks' thread so start a new thread re graphs - drag-queens et al.

Stop spamming.:thumbs:
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Thanks Duncan
I could get it to rev out better and therefore make more power (HP = Torque x RPM / 5252) by opening the ports up a smidge but its setup as a catch all at the moment.
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Sean

Did you not read the post that Hendrik put up, its his thread.

Hendrik said:
To all, I don´t mind the replies, that´s what a forum is all about

You were quick to pollute it with a sly advert for a bike carb setup of your own (post 21) you also said

Sean said:
Sorry for the hijack but this IS a forum where people chat and the conversation meanders like a river !

You also said several years ago

Sean said:
I have a detest of hypocrits !
Make your damn mind up

Moving on
Hendrik, its better when rolling road tests are done in 4th (direct 1:1 with the engine)

Any chance of a sound clip of the engine ?
 
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H3nrY

Well-Known Forum User
mmm, I´ll do it when I can at a place nearby. and ask them to do it in 4th.
ill check for a sound clip :thumbs:
 

ray100

Well-Known Forum User
Anyone else have any interesting dyno sheets.
Steve,
Here's a couple of screen shots from my last rolling road session in 4th gear from April this year with my 1972 240Z.It's got a ported & polished E88 cylinder head,triple 45 Webers and unknown cam.Although i'm very pleased with the end results (driveability/throttle response/reliability) your comments are always welcome.
Cheers
 
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rallymanDP

Well-Known Forum User
Ray - pretty good figures - and Rob - there's the "flat spot" at around 4,000rpm that I was talking about.

If I remember correctly, this is one of Dave Jarman's cars and Engines, isn't it ?
 

ray100

Well-Known Forum User
Yes Duncan,it was one of DJ's cars up to about 7 years ago & is a testament to his knowledge,skill & ability.The flat spot isn't really noticeable as it's a 'Weekend' road car as opposed to a track/race car,it's always interesting to see other graphs and i'll be following Hendrick's progress with interest.
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Unless you drive on the limit you may not notice these troughs, but sometimes they will catch you out, imagine driving around a real twisty circuit under pressure, taking the car up through the gears, reving out to 7 or so in 3rd then into 4th only to drop the car in that trough at 4K and all of a sudden lose 25ft/lbs of torque, if its on the road or a "fun" track day then it will most likley go un-noticed however under competative conditions coming out of a corner when you want the torque the most, it can be the differance between winning or losing.

Ray, to me that graph speaks volumes, look at the way the torque and HP shift around when the timing is changed brilliant thanks for that.

Just out of curiosity what exhaust system and inlet trumpet length are you running
 
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STEVE BURNS

Club Member
Ray, to me that graph speaks volumes, look at the way the torque and HP shift around when the timing is changed brilliant thanks for that

Steve as you know I am a complete numperty on stuff like this any chance of a thread somewhere explaining what it means in idiot talk for me
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Steve, more than happy too, once you learn the language of these graphs its amasing what you can glean from them, (to some that might seem a little sad).

I am currently writing an article on L6 tuning that will touch on some of the techniques used on high performance L6 setups with some practical tips that can be tried by most enthusiastic NA drivers.

I spent over 3 years getting my current engine to where it is and I have no hangups about sharing some of the experiance and technology with anyone who wants to read it....One thing it WONT be is a urinating competition, no axe to grind in my shed.

Give me a day or two and if its ok with everyone I will put something up...not sure where though.
 

ray100

Well-Known Forum User
Yes Steve,agree 100%,the guy at the Rolling Road company is from 'the old school' and after 4 sessions this was what he came up with and i'm a happy bunny :) He did quite a lot of changes every time using different main & correction jets,emulsion tubes etc as well as adjusting the timing,it's all a black science to me but i appreciate what i've ended up with.
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Unless you drive on the limit you may not notice these troughs, but sometimes they will catch you out, imagine driving around a real twisty circuit under pressure, taking the car up through the gears, reving out to 7 or so in 3rd then into 4th only to drop the car in that trough at 4K and all of a sudden lose 25ft/lbs of torque, if its on the road or a "fun" track day then it will most likley go un-noticed however under competative conditions coming out of a corner when you want the torque the most, it can be the differance between winning or losing.

Ok, this is matter of terminology. I fully understand the above and I was wrongly assuming that by flat-spot folks were taking about the engine not 'picking up' almost like fuel starvation. My car drives nicely and pulls ok through the full rev range for it's state of tune but when it gets to about 4k it 'comes on cam' and gives a real push (ok not like your's Steve or Johnny P's turbo) but it's a nice sporty characteristic. Unfortunately I don't have any graphs except acceleration graphs. I do have a list of bhp figures for my engine when tested 10 years ago. I'll dig them out.
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Ok, this is matter of terminology

Rob your right, the "trough" on the power curve at around 3500 – 4000 that many L6 installations suffer from, feels more like an exaggerated "on/off cam" feel rather than a true flat spot, you may go from heavy breaking and back on throttle in between which can mask it.
This drop in the power curve is most often a result of inappropriate exhaust lengths, carb sizing, inlet restrictions, cam specs and port size.

Its quiet common, most people don’t even know its there for many reasons,
Such as they don’t drive that hard, they don’t “know” what a well sorted L6 should feel like, they have never been to a decent rolling road and had it explained, they have been to a decent rolling road but they just don’t get it or they just don’t care.

Torque versus HP
For the purposes of analysis it’s also important that for now we should practically ignore the HP curve and concentrate on the torque curve as it tells us far more about what is going on, such as cylinder fill and top end breathing where as the HP curve is a composite view of Torque x RPM / 5252 and as such engine and dyno related HP get confusing with real world HP.

Ideal power profile
A well engineered L6 will see a steep rise in the torque curve from 1500/2000 to 4000 as the velocity of the incoming fuel/air charge gets going and VE (volumetric efficiency) starts to get going (over 100% is not unusual) then a surprisingly flat(ish) torque curve from 4K right through to 6K plus with the odd "dip" of only 10 or so ft/lbs, then after 6-6500 the torque tails off as VE drops due to the super high velocity of the incoming charge exceeding the mach number of the port (a port ceases to be efficient past 0.55 the speed of sound)

With a profile like this, driving you will get a real kick in the pants feel as it comes “on cam” followed by a continual “feed” of power and as a result acceleration and then at the top end a fairly swift drop off which most people won’t get too unless they are pushing their engines to 7000+


Its all about how much air/fuel mix you can cram into the cylinder
The term “On Cam” is a bit of a misnomer on a single cam engine…. its mainly to do with cylinder fill and VE
Cylinder fill is when the piston is on its way down and sucking air in…..WRONG its atmospheric pressure that is causing this inrush, that is why engines work better on a high pressure day and when the air is cooler (more dense, higher pressure to fill the cylinder more).
Air has mass and air moving at speed has inertia due to this mass, if your in-rushing air is moving quick enough then this inertia will fill the cylinder past its static capacity,

Imagine a goods train moving towards a closed end tunnel at 50 mph, when the train hits the other end only some of the train has entered the tunnel, now imagine that same train traveling at 300 mph, guess what, all of the train entered the tunnel, compresses right up with room to spare.

couple this effect with a rapid closing inlet valve that is shutting right at peak cylinder fill before the air/fuel mixture can escape and hey presto you have a volumetric efficiency of over 100%....this is the key to getting big torque (and thus big HP) out of an L6.


OK so we all do this then
Where we have failed (in the UK) is to ignore this absolute science and blanket everything with a rather Neanderthal approach of “bigger is better” leading to inappropriately carb’d over ported and over cammed engines many of which are still out there today.

Some L6 tuners have ignored the science (some don’t even know it exists, others think its witchcraft) some have wiped a die grinder around the ports, bolted on a set of triple something’s and charged a fortune for it, ohhing and ahhhing about a mid 14 second ¼ mile car, a few examples of this came out of Silverstone in the early 70’s….emperors new clothes anyone.

In summary, without a decent rolling road or dyno graph you don’t have a clue what your engine is doing at any given moment in time, so how on earth can you bolt any bits on to make it better (or in many cases worse).
 
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SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Steve as you know I am a complete numperty on stuff like this any chance of a thread somewhere explaining what it means in idiot talk for me

............and stop spamming this personal engine/car thread.:eek:

Other people later will never find this valuable info lost here !
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Well this is it, the sum total of any 'tuning' done to my engine in 10 years. It was set up to this 10 years ago and hasn't been changed since.

I can see Lewis now in the Maclaren garage "No lads dont touch it, it was set up 10 years ago, its fine...oh and dont forget to fill her up with LRP"

Only jesting Rob


It does however juxtapose the train of this thread though, which was initaly about Hendriks engine:thumbs: which with his permission has grown a little.

BTW Hendrik, if at any time you wish the general engine discussion to stop please let a mod know and the rest of this rambling can be moved......or in Sean language xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx x xxxxx
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
It does however juxtapose the train of this thread though, which was initaly about Hendriks engine:thumbs: which with his permission has grown a little.

BTW Hendrik, if at any time you wish the general engine discussion to stop please let a mod know and the rest of this rambling can be moved......or in Sean language xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxxx x xxxxx

Irrelevant if the thread owner agrees or not - it's spam - you want it hard - I removed mine following your comments - you were right !
 

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
Steve as you know I am a complete numperty on stuff like this any chance of a thread somewhere explaining what it means in idiot talk for me

............and stop spamming this personal engine/car thread.:eek:

Other people later will never find this valuable info lost here !


Oh please
If H3nrY the thread starter wants it removed I will remove it on his request
It is a genuine question about what the graphs mean to help the less knowledgeable amongst us understand what is happening according to engines from the Dyno results and not Spam as you put it
 
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