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correct me if i'm wrong..
- Thread starter qunvat
- Start date
Alan Wrote:
>.......{silly remarks about SAE standards snipped...cjb}...
>Every single one of your first-generation USA export market cars carries a
>kind of car "appendix" ( monkey tail, if you like ) to show that the S30-series
>Z was not designed and engineered for just the USA market HLS30U model.
>I think you really don't know what and where all these little clues are.
>Maybe some of them, but not all. What does it prove? For you it will
>always 'prove' anything that will help you to back up your
>["American car, made in Japan"] view.
Hello Alan (everyone):
Since you continue to attack me for stating what I belive to be the truth and nothing but the truth as reported, as written and as told by the men who were most responsible for the birth of the Z Car. I'll have yet again to respond. (per Sean's request;-)
While you offer quaint little "clues" that the DATSUN 240-Z was made in Japan... I clearly say that it was the first "American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan".
It would seem that statement is a bit too comprehensive for you to get your mind around.
Nonetheless, it's an accurate summary of the History Of The Z Car. That history is indeed about the DATSUN 240-Z that 90+% of us bought... and it is not driven in any material way, by the few Nissan Fairlady Z's sold in Japan, nor the few accents of design resulting from having been designed by the Japanese.
There is no disagreement that the car was designed and produced in Japan. I don't argue that there were no design alterations, changes, accommodations made to sell a few cars in Japan... but that is just an interesting side story.. about a very small percentage of the whole.
The main disagreement is related to "how, for whom and why" the Z Car was designed and produced.
You insist that it was a "Japanese Sports Car" that sold well over-sea's. You base this on the fact that the car was designed and produced in Japan.
I find that position a gross over simplification, that if allowed to stand, blurs an otherwise clear understanding of why the DATSUN 240-Z was such a significant design and such a significant marketing accomplishment in the history of the Automotive Industry.
Your position would reduce the significance of the DATSUN 240-Z to "gee Nissan was just lucky that they sold a few Japanese Sports Cars in foreign countries".
I say that Nissan Motors, and every person to a man, involved in the design and marketing of the Z Car says that it was indeed an American Sports/GT.. designed exclusively for America, and yes a few domestic market variations were sold in Japan (as well as about 3% of the DATSUN 240Z's sent to all other countries).
Both Mr. Katayama and Mr. Matsuo in their own book, written in Japan and published in Japan, state clearly that the "Z Car" was designed specifically for, and did get produced only because, it was singularly intended for Export to America.
Likewise John B. Ray in his "HISTORY OF NISSAN/DATSUN - A History Of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A. 1960-1980" (officially reviewed and endorsed by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan) writes of the Z Car:
Page 262:
......snipped...
here Mr. Ray is writing about US Customers and Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan Marketing.. as they developed their sports cars for EXPORT through the 60's. Between 1966 and 1969 less than 8 % of the Fairlady Roadsters produced were sold in Japan. There really was NO market in Japan, that justified Nissan producing a "Japanese Sports Car"..
= = =Quote ====
By that time it was becoming apparent that customer demand in sports cars favored a combination of racing car performance with the utility and comfort of a personal vehicle. To meet this challenge Nissan developed the Z series, which has built an enviable reputation both in racing and in popularity as a sports car. It is very appropriate, in fact, that NMC-USA's twenth anniversary should coincide with the tenth anniversary of the Z line in the United States. The 240-Z made its appearance on the American market in the 1970 Model Year, proudly presented by President Katayama in these words:
(ed...Katayama speaking to the Nissan employees)
With the introduction of the DATSUN 240-Z, Nissan will have enjoyed the accomplishment of covering the American market from Pick-up to Personal Sports Car.
We are proud to have been able to cover all purposes of motor car use, and for our Datsun Dealers network, the new 240-Z affords an opportunity to create an exciting new image.
240-Z represents the imaginative sprit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power, safety and providing them with the most thrilling, and enjoyable ride available in any car.
Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company, and its development will be unique in automobile history. We have studied the memorable artistry of European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship.
The result is an exotic, high performance car exclusively for America. It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute.
We adopt this new 240-Z as an aggressive innovation in automobile building and take pride in having been totally responsible for its concept.
Nissan offers this spirited car with affection - its heart is Japan and its soul is American.
= = =END Quote ====
"development will be unique in automobile history", "strictly American", "exclusively for America"..."and "its soul is American"... Oh, I forgot you, and only you Alan, contend that Mr. Katayama is an American..... da...
You and only you Alan say that Mr. Matsuo writes and says one thing to the world - and then tells you personally something entirely different... odd...
Steve say's he wants the story of the Z Car to come from Japan... yet somehow the book written in Japan and published in Japan isn't a Japanese source?... illogical at best. Or that somehow Brian Long translates incorrectly... hummm - while Alan translates correctly....hummm....
Your own Brian Long lived in Japan half the time, is married to a Japanese citizen.. writes books on the subject... but if that is quoted it's an American source?.. ridiculous!
Yes, I am an American - but I present only the story the people that "really know" the history of the Z car tell - because they created it - all I do is report it.
Your contention that the Z Car is a "Japanese Sports Car" because it was designed and produced in Japan, by Japanese is so small minded that it's laughable.
You suggest, by your undocumented and unsupported assertions.. that the Japanese Designers were incapable of designing anything other than a Japanese Car; and as proof, you offer their "few Japanese accents" left in the design... (the "appendix" which serves no real purpose - if you like).
I say that Mr. Matsuo and his team spoke all most Perfect English, with hardly a trace of Japanese accent left in the design. I say that Mr. Matsuo and his team proved that the Japanese had reached a level of design capability that allowed them to design products for world markets. I say that it is easy to see that they designed "an American Sports/GT" for America. (and so does everyone else from Nissan).
The men who conceived, designed, built and marketed the DATSUN 240-Z were global thinkers. Their strategy of reaching out to expand their markets, to find ways to increase production to mass production levels; was intended to grow not only their corporation, but their Country (and in that goal America was their strongest alley). Their tactic was to design and build the products their customers wanted to buy. For sports cars - their Customers were Americans.
For all those reasons, yes... the DATSUN 240Z is "the First American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan"". That is the essence of the paradigm shift that shocked the worlds Sports Car Market and shook the very foundations of the entire automotive market.
The DATSUN 240-Z served notice to the world that the Japanese Auto Industry had matured and was ready to compete in a world market.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
>.......{silly remarks about SAE standards snipped...cjb}...
>Every single one of your first-generation USA export market cars carries a
>kind of car "appendix" ( monkey tail, if you like ) to show that the S30-series
>Z was not designed and engineered for just the USA market HLS30U model.
>I think you really don't know what and where all these little clues are.
>Maybe some of them, but not all. What does it prove? For you it will
>always 'prove' anything that will help you to back up your
>["American car, made in Japan"] view.
Hello Alan (everyone):
Since you continue to attack me for stating what I belive to be the truth and nothing but the truth as reported, as written and as told by the men who were most responsible for the birth of the Z Car. I'll have yet again to respond. (per Sean's request;-)
While you offer quaint little "clues" that the DATSUN 240-Z was made in Japan... I clearly say that it was the first "American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan".
It would seem that statement is a bit too comprehensive for you to get your mind around.
Nonetheless, it's an accurate summary of the History Of The Z Car. That history is indeed about the DATSUN 240-Z that 90+% of us bought... and it is not driven in any material way, by the few Nissan Fairlady Z's sold in Japan, nor the few accents of design resulting from having been designed by the Japanese.
There is no disagreement that the car was designed and produced in Japan. I don't argue that there were no design alterations, changes, accommodations made to sell a few cars in Japan... but that is just an interesting side story.. about a very small percentage of the whole.
The main disagreement is related to "how, for whom and why" the Z Car was designed and produced.
You insist that it was a "Japanese Sports Car" that sold well over-sea's. You base this on the fact that the car was designed and produced in Japan.
I find that position a gross over simplification, that if allowed to stand, blurs an otherwise clear understanding of why the DATSUN 240-Z was such a significant design and such a significant marketing accomplishment in the history of the Automotive Industry.
Your position would reduce the significance of the DATSUN 240-Z to "gee Nissan was just lucky that they sold a few Japanese Sports Cars in foreign countries".
I say that Nissan Motors, and every person to a man, involved in the design and marketing of the Z Car says that it was indeed an American Sports/GT.. designed exclusively for America, and yes a few domestic market variations were sold in Japan (as well as about 3% of the DATSUN 240Z's sent to all other countries).
Both Mr. Katayama and Mr. Matsuo in their own book, written in Japan and published in Japan, state clearly that the "Z Car" was designed specifically for, and did get produced only because, it was singularly intended for Export to America.
Likewise John B. Ray in his "HISTORY OF NISSAN/DATSUN - A History Of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A. 1960-1980" (officially reviewed and endorsed by Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan) writes of the Z Car:
Page 262:
......snipped...
here Mr. Ray is writing about US Customers and Nissan Motors Ltd. Japan Marketing.. as they developed their sports cars for EXPORT through the 60's. Between 1966 and 1969 less than 8 % of the Fairlady Roadsters produced were sold in Japan. There really was NO market in Japan, that justified Nissan producing a "Japanese Sports Car"..
= = =Quote ====
By that time it was becoming apparent that customer demand in sports cars favored a combination of racing car performance with the utility and comfort of a personal vehicle. To meet this challenge Nissan developed the Z series, which has built an enviable reputation both in racing and in popularity as a sports car. It is very appropriate, in fact, that NMC-USA's twenth anniversary should coincide with the tenth anniversary of the Z line in the United States. The 240-Z made its appearance on the American market in the 1970 Model Year, proudly presented by President Katayama in these words:
(ed...Katayama speaking to the Nissan employees)
With the introduction of the DATSUN 240-Z, Nissan will have enjoyed the accomplishment of covering the American market from Pick-up to Personal Sports Car.
We are proud to have been able to cover all purposes of motor car use, and for our Datsun Dealers network, the new 240-Z affords an opportunity to create an exciting new image.
240-Z represents the imaginative sprit of Nissan, and was designed to please a demanding taste that is strictly American. It meets all the requirements of sports minded drivers, fulfilling their desire for superb styling, power, safety and providing them with the most thrilling, and enjoyable ride available in any car.
Our new product reflects the rapid advancement of our company, and its development will be unique in automobile history. We have studied the memorable artistry of European coachmakers and engine builders and combined our knowledge with Japanese craftsmanship.
The result is an exotic, high performance car exclusively for America. It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute.
We adopt this new 240-Z as an aggressive innovation in automobile building and take pride in having been totally responsible for its concept.
Nissan offers this spirited car with affection - its heart is Japan and its soul is American.
= = =END Quote ====
"development will be unique in automobile history", "strictly American", "exclusively for America"..."and "its soul is American"... Oh, I forgot you, and only you Alan, contend that Mr. Katayama is an American..... da...
You and only you Alan say that Mr. Matsuo writes and says one thing to the world - and then tells you personally something entirely different... odd...
Steve say's he wants the story of the Z Car to come from Japan... yet somehow the book written in Japan and published in Japan isn't a Japanese source?... illogical at best. Or that somehow Brian Long translates incorrectly... hummm - while Alan translates correctly....hummm....
Your own Brian Long lived in Japan half the time, is married to a Japanese citizen.. writes books on the subject... but if that is quoted it's an American source?.. ridiculous!
Yes, I am an American - but I present only the story the people that "really know" the history of the Z car tell - because they created it - all I do is report it.
Your contention that the Z Car is a "Japanese Sports Car" because it was designed and produced in Japan, by Japanese is so small minded that it's laughable.
You suggest, by your undocumented and unsupported assertions.. that the Japanese Designers were incapable of designing anything other than a Japanese Car; and as proof, you offer their "few Japanese accents" left in the design... (the "appendix" which serves no real purpose - if you like).
I say that Mr. Matsuo and his team spoke all most Perfect English, with hardly a trace of Japanese accent left in the design. I say that Mr. Matsuo and his team proved that the Japanese had reached a level of design capability that allowed them to design products for world markets. I say that it is easy to see that they designed "an American Sports/GT" for America. (and so does everyone else from Nissan).
The men who conceived, designed, built and marketed the DATSUN 240-Z were global thinkers. Their strategy of reaching out to expand their markets, to find ways to increase production to mass production levels; was intended to grow not only their corporation, but their Country (and in that goal America was their strongest alley). Their tactic was to design and build the products their customers wanted to buy. For sports cars - their Customers were Americans.
For all those reasons, yes... the DATSUN 240Z is "the First American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan"". That is the essence of the paradigm shift that shocked the worlds Sports Car Market and shook the very foundations of the entire automotive market.
The DATSUN 240-Z served notice to the world that the Japanese Auto Industry had matured and was ready to compete in a world market.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
DJZ 60
Well-Known Forum User
Hi,Carl.I am impressed with the fact's presented,& acknowledge that the American Market is a vast one,be it for car's or anything else.The key word is 'Marketing'.
Any potential car manufacturer would do anything to gain sale's,& a foothold in this highly competitive world of our's.
Jaguar's are marketed for the U.S but no one claim's them to be American.The Beatle's were 'geared' up for America, are they your's? Von Brown's Atomic research,began in Germany,ending up in America which,progressed into the space program.
Even Carey Grant came from Bristol u.k.
The fact's may be in print,but don't take everything as gospel,because ' Marketing' entail's board directer's,chairmen putting there arm's around their potential customer's.
Agreed The Z's were designed to accomedate design requirement's & preference's for your market but it would be harmful not to. The Ford mustang is American,the Corvette Stingray too, but the Z marque Is Japanese, just like the mitsibushi Zero...............Regard's.......DJZ 60.
Any potential car manufacturer would do anything to gain sale's,& a foothold in this highly competitive world of our's.
Jaguar's are marketed for the U.S but no one claim's them to be American.The Beatle's were 'geared' up for America, are they your's? Von Brown's Atomic research,began in Germany,ending up in America which,progressed into the space program.
Even Carey Grant came from Bristol u.k.
The fact's may be in print,but don't take everything as gospel,because ' Marketing' entail's board directer's,chairmen putting there arm's around their potential customer's.
Agreed The Z's were designed to accomedate design requirement's & preference's for your market but it would be harmful not to. The Ford mustang is American,the Corvette Stingray too, but the Z marque Is Japanese, just like the mitsibushi Zero...............Regard's.......DJZ 60.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
I don't think it can be ignored that the HS-30 /HLS-30 was designed and built in Japan by Japanese - that makes it a Japanese car. It MAY have been designed with a principal market in mind (obviously the US one) but that doesn't make it an American car ! One could say it was a Japanese Sports/GT" for America which is as good as saying it was designed solely for that market which I believe it wasn't - Carl, you said Nissans' aim was global and the US, whilst perhaps making up 80% os Z sales (I don't have the figures to hand), is only one country amongst many where Nissan could enhance it's staid image with a world-beating sports-car !
An interesting fact which might help this discussion is to know for how many cars, Nissan was geared up to make during the first 3 years of the HS-30/HLS-30s' life !
This might give more insight into their marketing strategy !
An interesting fact which might help this discussion is to know for how many cars, Nissan was geared up to make during the first 3 years of the HS-30/HLS-30s' life !
This might give more insight into their marketing strategy !
STEVE BURNS
Club Member
what have I done now another Mr Smack coming after me or is this another steve
Hi Sean/DJZ 60 (everyone):
You both raise good points and I'll come back to them individually because I think it's an interesting subject. (ZERO vs F51 or the Corsair). Perhaps that would be another good subject thread to start.
Let me say that in general - I'm afraid that you may be confusing "cultural identity" would "national identity". In so doing I'm afraid that the main significance of the design of the 240-Z can be lost.
We (at least here in America) refer to "British" or "German" or "Japanese" cars because of their cultural identity.
In the Post WW-II period (46 to 67 in this case):
While the "British" desired increased sales in the US - they continued to send "British Sports Cars".... (they did NOT do anything possible to sell more cars here, even though they might have thought at the time they were.) Likewise the Italians, French, Germans, and most of Japanese.
DJZ 60 said; "The Z's were designed to accomedate design requirement's & preference's for your market but it would be harmful not to."
I believe that statement would be far more accurately applied to the British, Italian and German offerings of the time. They all complied with all US Federal Import Standards, they shipped Left Hand Drive models here and they were priced competitively.
The 240-Z went way beyond accommodations and preferences. The 240-Z's design was focused on and driven by U.S. Customer Requirements. Gathered following the Deming philosophy of Total Quality Management. That is why it was such a significant change from the status quo. Matter of fact it was more of a quantum leap.
Many Americans loved the "imports" but, that was limited to less than 5% of the total market in 1967. By 1970 it amounted to about 10% of the total... In a completely OPEN Market - Why so little penetration?
Because "British Sports Cars" evolved over a prolonged period and were designed for use in Great Britain.. and for the most part they meet the demands and the expectations of the typical British customer... Same for the Italian, German and French cars offered here. Great cars for their own Country, great cars for their own local customers... and fine cars for a "few" Americans. All of them however retained their cultural identity, even while making the design changes to accommodate customer preferences and meet US Regulations.
The population demographics, the geography of the land, the cultural values, the typical use and most importantly the "Customer Expectations" of Americans were quite different than the imports own home markets. The competition was quite different as well.
90% of American Customers liked "American" Cars.. Why? Because they were designed, built and owned by "Americans" - NO!! Because they were tailored for use in America by the typical American customer. Because they meet the expectations of function, form, performance and use that the typical American had for his car.
"The Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan" - was to realize and admit to themselves that "Culturally Japanese Cars" had limited appeal here... Just as Culturally British, French, German and Italian Cars etc. did.
So instead of continuing business as usual - like all the other imports ... Nissan designed and built "an American Sports/GT". Actually the first evolution of that idea was the design of the 510 driven more directly by American requirements than any previous Nissan.. it also fits a little more closely with the "accommodations/ preferences" approach. There was no Federal Requirement for a 1600cc, overhead cam engine, nor any requirement for full independent suspension - but power and ride quality were customer expectations here.
The Z was not a slightly modified "Japanese car", not even a highly modified "Japanese car". Nissan didn't just build compliance for export in... this was an all out effort to design and build an American Sports/GT for America.
As DJZ 60 correctly points out - hell - all of us are imports here. Dr. Werner von Braun - very good example - he is as "American" as my Great Grandfather. Albrecht Goertz... just as "American" as any of us and a true example of the "American Success Story" (feel free to ask him or read his autobiography). Both became American Citizens, both accepted and fully lived up to American cultural ideals. Were they from some other Nation? -- SURE - everything here is relatively recently "from somewhere else"... von Braun and Goertz both immersed themselves fully in the American culture.
Nissan realized, almost entirely because of Mr. Katayama - that the cultural identity of the car was more important to Americans, than it's National identity. (that is also why he succeeded here in such a wild fashion - while the men that sent him here fully expected him to fail. They too confused National identity, with cultural identity.)
Being "American" isn't about birth rights, family history, or even physical location .... America is not steeped in a thousand years of cultural tradition. Nonetheless, there is a uniquely "American" culture; quite different than the cultures from which most of us or our families came. The Great American melting pot - brews up a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.
A single land mass as big as Europe... with a common language, common values and common goals... 50 United States. Freely crossed at high speed without boarders - via an Interstate Freeway System longer than the rest of the world's super-highways combined.
California in 1965-70 !!! A single State the size of Japan, with one tenth the population of Japan. Traffic that moves at 70 mph + through town!!, people that commute 60 to 80 miles one way daily via automobiles, and think they live "close" to work. Freeway entrance speeds of 65+ mph, in less than an 1/8 mile. Katayama remarked that "Japanese Cars" were not only out of place, they were dangerous there!!
The first "DATSUN's", Honda's, Toyota's into the USA market in the early 60's were indeed culturally "Japanese Cars". All very small, low powered, plainly styled but perfectly functional for the small streets and rough roads of Japan.
Nissan broke the mold - jumped out of the "Japanese" box - in the mid 60's...
Italian Styling, German Engine, English Ford Suspension, American Brakes.... Ergonomics laid out for the the typical 89th percentile man/woman... design driven by American Safety Standards and American Customer Requirements. Nothing about the 240-Z was culturally "Japanese" (other than the few insignificant accents that Alan loves to highlight;-).
The DATSUN 240-Z at that time was as "American" as Louis Chevrolet and the Corvette (or Lee Iacocca and the Ford Mustang;-).
To say that "the Z was a Japanese Sports/GT" for America" I'm afraid establishes it's National Identity... but misses the single most significant accomplishment of the entire design effort. That of creating the desired American Cultural Identity for the car.
I believe that the phrase "the First American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan" summarizes nicely, the paradigm shift in design that is of such significance, the Cultural Identity of the Z and the National Identity of it's creators.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
You both raise good points and I'll come back to them individually because I think it's an interesting subject. (ZERO vs F51 or the Corsair). Perhaps that would be another good subject thread to start.
Let me say that in general - I'm afraid that you may be confusing "cultural identity" would "national identity". In so doing I'm afraid that the main significance of the design of the 240-Z can be lost.
We (at least here in America) refer to "British" or "German" or "Japanese" cars because of their cultural identity.
In the Post WW-II period (46 to 67 in this case):
While the "British" desired increased sales in the US - they continued to send "British Sports Cars".... (they did NOT do anything possible to sell more cars here, even though they might have thought at the time they were.) Likewise the Italians, French, Germans, and most of Japanese.
DJZ 60 said; "The Z's were designed to accomedate design requirement's & preference's for your market but it would be harmful not to."
I believe that statement would be far more accurately applied to the British, Italian and German offerings of the time. They all complied with all US Federal Import Standards, they shipped Left Hand Drive models here and they were priced competitively.
The 240-Z went way beyond accommodations and preferences. The 240-Z's design was focused on and driven by U.S. Customer Requirements. Gathered following the Deming philosophy of Total Quality Management. That is why it was such a significant change from the status quo. Matter of fact it was more of a quantum leap.
Many Americans loved the "imports" but, that was limited to less than 5% of the total market in 1967. By 1970 it amounted to about 10% of the total... In a completely OPEN Market - Why so little penetration?
Because "British Sports Cars" evolved over a prolonged period and were designed for use in Great Britain.. and for the most part they meet the demands and the expectations of the typical British customer... Same for the Italian, German and French cars offered here. Great cars for their own Country, great cars for their own local customers... and fine cars for a "few" Americans. All of them however retained their cultural identity, even while making the design changes to accommodate customer preferences and meet US Regulations.
The population demographics, the geography of the land, the cultural values, the typical use and most importantly the "Customer Expectations" of Americans were quite different than the imports own home markets. The competition was quite different as well.
90% of American Customers liked "American" Cars.. Why? Because they were designed, built and owned by "Americans" - NO!! Because they were tailored for use in America by the typical American customer. Because they meet the expectations of function, form, performance and use that the typical American had for his car.
"The Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan" - was to realize and admit to themselves that "Culturally Japanese Cars" had limited appeal here... Just as Culturally British, French, German and Italian Cars etc. did.
So instead of continuing business as usual - like all the other imports ... Nissan designed and built "an American Sports/GT". Actually the first evolution of that idea was the design of the 510 driven more directly by American requirements than any previous Nissan.. it also fits a little more closely with the "accommodations/ preferences" approach. There was no Federal Requirement for a 1600cc, overhead cam engine, nor any requirement for full independent suspension - but power and ride quality were customer expectations here.
The Z was not a slightly modified "Japanese car", not even a highly modified "Japanese car". Nissan didn't just build compliance for export in... this was an all out effort to design and build an American Sports/GT for America.
As DJZ 60 correctly points out - hell - all of us are imports here. Dr. Werner von Braun - very good example - he is as "American" as my Great Grandfather. Albrecht Goertz... just as "American" as any of us and a true example of the "American Success Story" (feel free to ask him or read his autobiography). Both became American Citizens, both accepted and fully lived up to American cultural ideals. Were they from some other Nation? -- SURE - everything here is relatively recently "from somewhere else"... von Braun and Goertz both immersed themselves fully in the American culture.
Nissan realized, almost entirely because of Mr. Katayama - that the cultural identity of the car was more important to Americans, than it's National identity. (that is also why he succeeded here in such a wild fashion - while the men that sent him here fully expected him to fail. They too confused National identity, with cultural identity.)
Being "American" isn't about birth rights, family history, or even physical location .... America is not steeped in a thousand years of cultural tradition. Nonetheless, there is a uniquely "American" culture; quite different than the cultures from which most of us or our families came. The Great American melting pot - brews up a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.
A single land mass as big as Europe... with a common language, common values and common goals... 50 United States. Freely crossed at high speed without boarders - via an Interstate Freeway System longer than the rest of the world's super-highways combined.
California in 1965-70 !!! A single State the size of Japan, with one tenth the population of Japan. Traffic that moves at 70 mph + through town!!, people that commute 60 to 80 miles one way daily via automobiles, and think they live "close" to work. Freeway entrance speeds of 65+ mph, in less than an 1/8 mile. Katayama remarked that "Japanese Cars" were not only out of place, they were dangerous there!!
The first "DATSUN's", Honda's, Toyota's into the USA market in the early 60's were indeed culturally "Japanese Cars". All very small, low powered, plainly styled but perfectly functional for the small streets and rough roads of Japan.
Nissan broke the mold - jumped out of the "Japanese" box - in the mid 60's...
Italian Styling, German Engine, English Ford Suspension, American Brakes.... Ergonomics laid out for the the typical 89th percentile man/woman... design driven by American Safety Standards and American Customer Requirements. Nothing about the 240-Z was culturally "Japanese" (other than the few insignificant accents that Alan loves to highlight;-).
The DATSUN 240-Z at that time was as "American" as Louis Chevrolet and the Corvette (or Lee Iacocca and the Ford Mustang;-).
To say that "the Z was a Japanese Sports/GT" for America" I'm afraid establishes it's National Identity... but misses the single most significant accomplishment of the entire design effort. That of creating the desired American Cultural Identity for the car.
I believe that the phrase "the First American Sports/GT - Designed And Built In Japan" summarizes nicely, the paradigm shift in design that is of such significance, the Cultural Identity of the Z and the National Identity of it's creators.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Just lost all that I typed - point was the Z ate into the Foreign cars' markets as they didn't evolve their cars whilst they were being sold in the US and the US bought them as they were 'cos they were quaint, fiddly, uncomfortable, ill-equipped and therefore 'sportscars' !
I don't think many Americans bought them instead of US cars, they were potential buyers already of Foreign sportscars and a good one came along !
I'd still like to know for how many Zs, Nissan was geared up to make and send to the US during the first 2-3 years of it's life - ANY TAKERS ?
And Ford UK suspension on a Z ? You mean like the cart-springs used on Ford Capris until the end of it's life in the '80s ?
Happy you're so thick-skinned Carl or this thread wouldn't be half as interesting !
I don't think many Americans bought them instead of US cars, they were potential buyers already of Foreign sportscars and a good one came along !
I'd still like to know for how many Zs, Nissan was geared up to make and send to the US during the first 2-3 years of it's life - ANY TAKERS ?
And Ford UK suspension on a Z ? You mean like the cart-springs used on Ford Capris until the end of it's life in the '80s ?
Happy you're so thick-skinned Carl or this thread wouldn't be half as interesting !
zedhead260
Well-Known Forum User
Yes, that comment puzzled me somewhat. It's closer to something that Colin Chapman and Lotus were doing.
Hi Sean:
>...snipped...cjb
>An interesting fact which might help this discussion is to know for
>how many cars, Nissan was geared up to make during the first 3
>years of the HS-30/HLS-30s' life !
>This might give more insight into their marketing strategy !
Hi Sean:
In four calendar years 1970 through 1973 - Nissan produced 192,000 units. That's about 47,750 units average per year.
The first year...they got 23,000 out the door.. 45,000 the second year ....66,000 the third year and 58,000. the fourth year. (Fourth year production may have been down due to the change over from 240-Z to 260-Z.)
As the story is told by Mr. Matsuo;
".....instead of producing 300 units per month, this had to be a high-volume seller, capable of becoming the core of Nissan's export business - I suggested a level of near 3,000 vehicles per month to make it profitable.
Ultimately, we achieved far greater sales figures than this, but at the time, my superiors thought it was a foolish plan; nobody except Mr.Katayama would listen to me. I felt that the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him as President of Nissan Motors USA, to push for the models development."
= = = end quote = = =
Nissan's Corporate Management at the time - thought Sports Car sales would remain about the same in the US with a slight increase hope for.. so instead of risking the capital for a "new" high volume production facility... they outsourced the production of the Z, just as they had the Fairlady Roadsters to Nissan Shatai. (Shatai was a sub-contractor).
As you can see from the figures... they doubled production the second year and upped it again in the third. Production dropped off a bit in 73 due to the model change over (240/260Z).
According to the records released by Nissan... and rounded off...as they are presented in a graphic... (your mileage may vary..)
1968 They produced about 12,500 roadsters, of which 11,500 were Exported
1969 They produced about 10,000 roadsters of which 9,000 were Exported
1970 They produced about 23,000 units of which 18,000 were Exported
1971 They produced about 45,000 units of which 40,000 were Exported
1972 They produced about 66,000 units of which 60,000 were Exported
1973 They produced about 58,000 units of which 52,000 were Exported
Sub Totals 192,000 units produced and 173,000 units Exported.
NOTE: that's PRODUCTION YEAR (not Model Year)... so 1973 includes some 260Z production.
and 1972 includes 1973 Model Year Cars..
and 1971 includes 1972 Model Year Cars
and 1970 includes some roadsters still being made at that time.
For Z Car Production it would appear that about.165,000 produced and sold as 1970 to 1973 Model Year DATSUN 240-Z's. (that would leave about 8,000 units that were either 1970 roadsters or 1974 260's produced at the end of 73).
Likewise of the 18,000 units retained in Japan.. some would have been Roadsters and some would have been 1974 Model Year Fairlady's.
So Z Car Sales were about four to five times as great as roadster sales
About 10% of Sales were into the JDM
About 90% of Sales were exports
As I have said before - Nissan could easily have sold twice the number, had the cars been available.
240-Z Export Sales: 1970-73
90% USA 148,500
07% Canada 11,200
01.4% Australia 2,350
01.2% GB 1929
00.3% France 484
00.1% Holland 230
Source: Nissan's 280ZX Book & Ray's History Of Nissan Motors USA.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
>...snipped...cjb
>An interesting fact which might help this discussion is to know for
>how many cars, Nissan was geared up to make during the first 3
>years of the HS-30/HLS-30s' life !
>This might give more insight into their marketing strategy !
Hi Sean:
In four calendar years 1970 through 1973 - Nissan produced 192,000 units. That's about 47,750 units average per year.
The first year...they got 23,000 out the door.. 45,000 the second year ....66,000 the third year and 58,000. the fourth year. (Fourth year production may have been down due to the change over from 240-Z to 260-Z.)
As the story is told by Mr. Matsuo;
".....instead of producing 300 units per month, this had to be a high-volume seller, capable of becoming the core of Nissan's export business - I suggested a level of near 3,000 vehicles per month to make it profitable.
Ultimately, we achieved far greater sales figures than this, but at the time, my superiors thought it was a foolish plan; nobody except Mr.Katayama would listen to me. I felt that the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him as President of Nissan Motors USA, to push for the models development."
= = = end quote = = =
Nissan's Corporate Management at the time - thought Sports Car sales would remain about the same in the US with a slight increase hope for.. so instead of risking the capital for a "new" high volume production facility... they outsourced the production of the Z, just as they had the Fairlady Roadsters to Nissan Shatai. (Shatai was a sub-contractor).
As you can see from the figures... they doubled production the second year and upped it again in the third. Production dropped off a bit in 73 due to the model change over (240/260Z).
According to the records released by Nissan... and rounded off...as they are presented in a graphic... (your mileage may vary..)
1968 They produced about 12,500 roadsters, of which 11,500 were Exported
1969 They produced about 10,000 roadsters of which 9,000 were Exported
1970 They produced about 23,000 units of which 18,000 were Exported
1971 They produced about 45,000 units of which 40,000 were Exported
1972 They produced about 66,000 units of which 60,000 were Exported
1973 They produced about 58,000 units of which 52,000 were Exported
Sub Totals 192,000 units produced and 173,000 units Exported.
NOTE: that's PRODUCTION YEAR (not Model Year)... so 1973 includes some 260Z production.
and 1972 includes 1973 Model Year Cars..
and 1971 includes 1972 Model Year Cars
and 1970 includes some roadsters still being made at that time.
For Z Car Production it would appear that about.165,000 produced and sold as 1970 to 1973 Model Year DATSUN 240-Z's. (that would leave about 8,000 units that were either 1970 roadsters or 1974 260's produced at the end of 73).
Likewise of the 18,000 units retained in Japan.. some would have been Roadsters and some would have been 1974 Model Year Fairlady's.
So Z Car Sales were about four to five times as great as roadster sales
About 10% of Sales were into the JDM
About 90% of Sales were exports
As I have said before - Nissan could easily have sold twice the number, had the cars been available.
240-Z Export Sales: 1970-73
90% USA 148,500
07% Canada 11,200
01.4% Australia 2,350
01.2% GB 1929
00.3% France 484
00.1% Holland 230
Source: Nissan's 280ZX Book & Ray's History Of Nissan Motors USA.
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
Hi Guys:
Oh..come on.. you guys are pulling my leg now... right?
As I recall, Mr. Earl S. MacPherson was the Engineer that developed/adapted the airplane strut for automotive use - for Ford of England in the late 40's. He was a well-known General Motors engineer for Chevrolet, and after moving to Ford's European division, he developed the strut that would bear his name. (born in Britain). It was first adopted on the French Ford Vedette in 1949. Two years later, Ford in Britain used it for the Consul and the Zephyr.
Mr. Chapman later modified the design, so it could be used in the rear suspension as well. creating the Chapman Struts.
The 240Z has MacPherson Struts in front, and Chapman Struts in the rear. The main difference is how the lower part of the strut is located (prevented from moving in certain directions while allowing movement in other directions).
The original design of the MacPherson Strut can be seen on the TR-8 I believe. That is where the anti-sway bar runs through the lower control arm. On the Z's we use a tension/compression rod. (Chapman used a lower "A" frame on the rear).
FWIW,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Gee, thanks Carl !
"Nissan's Corporate Management at the time - thought Sports Car sales would remain about the same in the US with a slight increase hope for.."
So, what happened to Nissans' global:
"The Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan"
which Nissan would campaign with:
"So instead of continuing business as usual - like all the other imports ... Nissan designed and built "an American Sports/GT"."
In other words, Nissan wanted to take on the world, improving their image at the same time by creating a new car and selling no more cars than they had been doing with perhaps a slight improvement ?
Nah, the cars started selling like hot-cakes as they'd priced it right (for the customers) and most of the production was then geared up for the US market that they'd seriously underestimated !
Extremely informative as your answer is, it still doesn't address my outstanding question - I'd still like to know for how many Zs, Nissan was geared up to MAKE AND SEND TO THE US during the first 2-3 years of it's life ?
If you have answered that with the figures, I must assume that Nissan expected to sell (in 1970 for example) 23,000 units of which Nissan expected at least 9,000 (the previous years' total) maybe slightly more, let's say 11,000 leaving some 12,000 for the home and other foreign markets !
Sounds less of an 'American Sports-car' when looked at from that angle, hmm ?
BTW, I would have thought with the Zs suspension, steering and 'small' engine, it was less of an American car and more of a European car - you know, twisty, narrow roads, high price of petrol !
If Nissan wanted to sell a sports-car to Americans, they'd have wanted you guys to really give up on US sportscars rather than the dribble of foreign imported sportscars. They might then have used one of the bigger engines of the time in a heavier (but more comfortable) car with power steering and brakes !
"Nissan's Corporate Management at the time - thought Sports Car sales would remain about the same in the US with a slight increase hope for.."
So, what happened to Nissans' global:
"The Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan"
which Nissan would campaign with:
"So instead of continuing business as usual - like all the other imports ... Nissan designed and built "an American Sports/GT"."
In other words, Nissan wanted to take on the world, improving their image at the same time by creating a new car and selling no more cars than they had been doing with perhaps a slight improvement ?
Nah, the cars started selling like hot-cakes as they'd priced it right (for the customers) and most of the production was then geared up for the US market that they'd seriously underestimated !
Extremely informative as your answer is, it still doesn't address my outstanding question - I'd still like to know for how many Zs, Nissan was geared up to MAKE AND SEND TO THE US during the first 2-3 years of it's life ?
If you have answered that with the figures, I must assume that Nissan expected to sell (in 1970 for example) 23,000 units of which Nissan expected at least 9,000 (the previous years' total) maybe slightly more, let's say 11,000 leaving some 12,000 for the home and other foreign markets !
Sounds less of an 'American Sports-car' when looked at from that angle, hmm ?
BTW, I would have thought with the Zs suspension, steering and 'small' engine, it was less of an American car and more of a European car - you know, twisty, narrow roads, high price of petrol !
If Nissan wanted to sell a sports-car to Americans, they'd have wanted you guys to really give up on US sportscars rather than the dribble of foreign imported sportscars. They might then have used one of the bigger engines of the time in a heavier (but more comfortable) car with power steering and brakes !
Nissan's Management didn't think "Matsuo" was correct. Katayama came in an backed Matsuo - and Katayama projected sales at 30K to 40K per year. So Nissan put the car into production - outsourced the production... but started with orders to their suppliers for slightly "less" than Mr. K projected..
When the sales forcast for the US turned out to be true - Nissan up'd their orders to their suppliers.. then doubled them the following year.. etc.
Had Nissan Management in Japan done what Mr. K projected... there wouldn't have been the six month delay in orders being filled.
I don't believe anyone said any thing about the "world". Nissan wanted to increase its Exports... Katayama wanted to build sales at Nissan Motors USA.
Katayama had full faith that he could sell the Z... Nissan's Management in Japan didn't have "full" faith in Katayama (some say they really did everything they could to undermine him)... None the less, at the end of the first year of sales... the point that Katayama was correct could not be ignored.. and production was doubled...
Carl
You keep going back to "price". The Z was within a few hundred dollars more or less than the Fiat 124, the MGB-GT, the Triumph TR6, the Porsche 914.
On the American Car side -- the Mustang GT was around $3,500.00 as was the Chevy Camero.
The Z didn't really sell based on "price" - indeed many people were paying a thousand to two thousand dollars "over window sticker" for them the first couple of years. The Dealers were packing every aftermarket goodie that added profit to the car on them as well.
Nissan did not "gear up" to make anything !! Instead they sub-contracted with another company - that was supposed to have the production capacity to handle their needs.... First year production always starts out slow... most assembly lines don't reach full capacity for several months on a new model.
Nissan wanted to become a 'mass producer" - but in 1970 they still hadn't grown that large. So production schedules and orders were based on decisions made by Management, based on Orders Received and Sales Projections. The theory being that they would ramp up production based on market demand. (a conservative approach).
It may have been simply a case of Corporate Management in Japan being too conservative.
As has been mentioned before - Nissan in 1970 was still a relative small manufacture... the first real Sales Success they had for Export was the 510. Could be that had consumed any excess production capacity they had left in their existing facilities.
regards,
Carl
I think you said earlier - "I don't think many Americans bought them instead of US cars, they were potential buyers already of Foreign sportscars and a good one came along !"
The best of Plans and the best of Products need that extra bit of "timing" and "luck"... I think that is also true of the Z Story.
Starting around 1965 more and more Americans were looking for smaller, cheaper cars - to be used primarily as "second cars" or "third cars" in the family. They were used mostly for to/from work, around town errands and most of the time there was only one person in them anyway.
The American Manufacturers had introduced "compact" cars like the Corvair, the Pinto, Valiant in the early 60's.. and they sold in the 100's of thousands per year.. The 65 Mustang broke new ground in Sales.. "Sporty" looking.. and inexpensive. Then Chevy answered with their Camero in 67... sold like hotcakes. Both the Mustang and Camero had in-line six's in their base models and they sold in the 100's of thousands per year.
By 1970...the Z hit not only an increasingly large foreign "Sports Car" market here - they hit the American "Sporty" car market as well. I sold a lot of Z's to people that had never owned, nor even considered owning a foreign sports car (too small, cramped, unreliable, too few dealers around etc)... but they had been looking at the Mustangs and Cameros.
Performance was a bit better in the Z (as it weighed far less)... and the styling was just a knock-out for most people. Because the Z had the headroom and legroom of an American "Sporty" car... combined with that huge hatchback... it actually offered as much or more "utility" than the "Sporty" American cars. There was no comparison between the American Sporty Cars.. and the Z when it came to how they drove, rode and handled.
(have you ever driven a 67-69 Mustang?).
So selling the Z - we had it made both ways.. A really great Sports/GT if the buyer was looking for that - and a really great "Sporty" car that served the purpose of the second or third car for the family.
It was quite easy to sell a Z to a person that was looking at the Mustang/Camero competition. All you had to do was point out the build quality differences between the two..
Build Quality... maybe if I get the time, I'll write an article on that subject. The same was true when selling a 510 against the Vega and Pinto of the time. Once you pointed out all the little things...the DATSUN looked FAR better than the competition.
regards,
Carl
#260
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
zedhead260
Well-Known Forum User
No I'm serious !
I don't know of any English Ford that has independent rear suspension like that of a Z. Fronts yes, but certainly not at the back.
Like Sean says, The Capri (Fords closest equivalent if you like) had leaf springs and a live axel - much as the Corvette still has today.
I know the rear is a Colin Chapman modification of the Macpherson, and Colin was the main man at Lotus... not Ford. But my knowledge is limited in this area.
Maybe I've mis-understood your point.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Carl
We should not confuse Katayama with Corporate Nissan in Japan.
If Nissan did not expect (unlike Katayama) to sell many Zs in the US then it can hardly be claimed to have been built for that market, especially in the light of their "Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan" (and therefore you spoke of 'world' first Carl, not I !
Rather it was a world car, to be sold in every market as a shining example of Nissans ability to mass-produce quality cars - a flag-ship !
Sure it was designed to meet American Safety Standards and American Customer Requirements. Two reasons, 1) even if Nissan didn't expect to sell as many as were sold, the US was still the largest export market and 2) the US had the toughest regulations and any car passing them would surely pass other countrys' regs. too - no need to type test the car for every other market - costly and time-consuming) !
"The Z didn't really sell based on "price" - Carl, if Nissan had priced the car "a thousand to two thousand dollars "over window sticker" for them the first couple of years", they wouldn't have sold as they did to the detriment of other foriegn sales ! I believe in the US the write ups and comparisons are read more frequently, thoroughly and are trusted than over here ( your consumer magazines were are well suited to the typical American who wants to shop around to find the best deal for him/her ! All these magazines were saying what a great car the Z was for 3,500 dollars, people tried 'em out and placed their orders. The only surprising thing was that they waited or paid more for quicker delivery instead of buying something else - you're not renowned for being a patient buying public !
One can say that in Europe (or perhaps generally outside the US) the Z didn't sell on price as it was almost the same price as a 911 or E-Type BUT it sold anyway. No Carl, I must believe that price was a MAJOR factor in it's success in the States !
If you want to compare the Cameros and Mustangs because they had sixs, don't forget they also had four seats - the only two seater US sportscar was the 'vette, which had an almost untouchable image !
Question, what were the sales figures for these three cars in say 1970 / 1/ 2 ?
Did they suffer as a result of the Z being sold ? I suspect not, as you said "Starting around 1965 more and more Americans were looking for smaller, cheaper cars - to be used primarily as "second cars" or "third cars" in the family "
There was an affluence that allowed families to buy their 2nd and 3rd car and most would inevitably turn to the 'sporting' arm of the dealership which had sold them their primary family car - Ford, Chevrolet etc...
I still say that to quote ones' Z as (eg) a March '72 Z is as informative and more likely to quickly be understood by ones' parts store than saying (eg) a Series II Z !
Have you ever driven a UK Ford Capri ? And more pertinent, the same car in the wet ? Never would you say it had suspension designed in-house at Lotus !!!
Rob, I would say that the Celica was roughly on a par with the Capri for wet road handling, wouldn't you ?
We should not confuse Katayama with Corporate Nissan in Japan.
If Nissan did not expect (unlike Katayama) to sell many Zs in the US then it can hardly be claimed to have been built for that market, especially in the light of their "Paradigm Shift" - the "World Beating Strategy of Nissan" (and therefore you spoke of 'world' first Carl, not I !
Rather it was a world car, to be sold in every market as a shining example of Nissans ability to mass-produce quality cars - a flag-ship !
Sure it was designed to meet American Safety Standards and American Customer Requirements. Two reasons, 1) even if Nissan didn't expect to sell as many as were sold, the US was still the largest export market and 2) the US had the toughest regulations and any car passing them would surely pass other countrys' regs. too - no need to type test the car for every other market - costly and time-consuming) !
"The Z didn't really sell based on "price" - Carl, if Nissan had priced the car "a thousand to two thousand dollars "over window sticker" for them the first couple of years", they wouldn't have sold as they did to the detriment of other foriegn sales ! I believe in the US the write ups and comparisons are read more frequently, thoroughly and are trusted than over here ( your consumer magazines were are well suited to the typical American who wants to shop around to find the best deal for him/her ! All these magazines were saying what a great car the Z was for 3,500 dollars, people tried 'em out and placed their orders. The only surprising thing was that they waited or paid more for quicker delivery instead of buying something else - you're not renowned for being a patient buying public !
One can say that in Europe (or perhaps generally outside the US) the Z didn't sell on price as it was almost the same price as a 911 or E-Type BUT it sold anyway. No Carl, I must believe that price was a MAJOR factor in it's success in the States !
If you want to compare the Cameros and Mustangs because they had sixs, don't forget they also had four seats - the only two seater US sportscar was the 'vette, which had an almost untouchable image !
Question, what were the sales figures for these three cars in say 1970 / 1/ 2 ?
Did they suffer as a result of the Z being sold ? I suspect not, as you said "Starting around 1965 more and more Americans were looking for smaller, cheaper cars - to be used primarily as "second cars" or "third cars" in the family "
There was an affluence that allowed families to buy their 2nd and 3rd car and most would inevitably turn to the 'sporting' arm of the dealership which had sold them their primary family car - Ford, Chevrolet etc...
I still say that to quote ones' Z as (eg) a March '72 Z is as informative and more likely to quickly be understood by ones' parts store than saying (eg) a Series II Z !
Have you ever driven a UK Ford Capri ? And more pertinent, the same car in the wet ? Never would you say it had suspension designed in-house at Lotus !!!
Rob, I would say that the Celica was roughly on a par with the Capri for wet road handling, wouldn't you ?
Hi Sean:
It may be just semantics... but "Price" vs "Value":
When I say the Z didn't sell because of "price" - I say that because there was lots of direct competition in that price range. So people did not make a "buy" decision based on it being less expensive than it's competition. ie... ""after wheeling and dealing the Datsun Dealer offered the best price". Indeed people were paying above MSRP for them.
I think when you say they bought it because of its "price" - you are saying that given the amount of car they were buying - it was underpriced. ie.. a bargain, or car that represented a very high "value" for the money paid.
In that case I would agree completely. Customer Value was very high in the Z compared to it's competition. For the same or slight more money, the 240-Z offered far more "car".
Katayama vs. Nissan Corporate Management.
The battles between the two are well documented (lots of great stories there and case studies as well). Nonetheless, as President of NISSAN USA, Mr. K was also a part of Nissan's Corporate Management and held great influence on Corporate decisions. While most of his peers in Japan (Corporate V.P.'s) were his constant detractors.... he produced results they could not argue with. (I'll have to go find the source again - but as I recall by 1972 Nissan USA accounted for 60% of Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.s total profits).
"World Beating" vs. "World Wide"
Nissan's world beating strategy - effectively won them the battle for the sports car market here on the US battleground..... ie. they beat competitors from all over the world here. The competition in most cases did not recover either.
Did Nissan in the long term wish to expand their sales reach "world wide". I'd have to say of course they did. Was the 240-Z their "flagship" car? I don't think they saw it that way at the time.... but did realize it later at some point. I would agree that they wanted to get at least a few percent of production spread around the world, they did have a few dealers at the time in GB and other European countries.
Why was Nissan/DATSUN so small in Europe?...
1) Protective Trade barriers. As you said, the 240-Z was as expensive (or almost as expensive) as the 911 or E-Type in GB and the rest of Europe. Customer Value again. Compared to a 911 at the same price in Europe, I'd say that the Porsche offered as much or more "Customer Value" and was far a far better known brand.
2) Marketing/Distribution/Dealer Organization - Nissan was simply far smaller in every regard in GB/Europe than they were in the US. They were simply too small a company in 1970 to build and supply a world wide distribution.
Did Nissan design and build the 240-Z as a "world car". NO.
Did Nissan design and build the new 350-Z as a "world car" - A qualified Yes.
Today more and more large manufacturers are aiming their designs at world wide markets. Indeed Nissan reports 350Z sales now in terms of total units sold world wide. World Free Trade has opened up the markets of Europe to far greater extent than in the 60's/70's. How does the Nissan 350Z compare in price to a new 911 style/type Porsche now? Here the 350Z is $30/35K while the 911's are $85/110K. (about the same relative costs... ie. a 911 is still two and half times as expensive as a Z). Are they still priced the same or almost the same in Europe?
Renault and Nissan plan to share several platforms components etc on a global scale. Likewise Ford had tried marketing designs intended for world wide sales in the 80's/90's. It will remain to be seen if that strategy will be successful in the long run.
Capri:
I never have driven a Euro version of the Capri... did drive several US versions with both the 4cylinder and V6). They too were considered competition for sales to the Z. (even if they did have a back seat). They are starting to gain some popularity here now again as collectibles/special interest cars and prices are going up on nice examples.
BTW - here is a nice Z for you. If you send me the money, I'll keep it here in my garage for you until you can pick it up ;-)
http://www.vipclassics.com/stk2029090.phtml
regards,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com
It may be just semantics... but "Price" vs "Value":
When I say the Z didn't sell because of "price" - I say that because there was lots of direct competition in that price range. So people did not make a "buy" decision based on it being less expensive than it's competition. ie... ""after wheeling and dealing the Datsun Dealer offered the best price". Indeed people were paying above MSRP for them.
I think when you say they bought it because of its "price" - you are saying that given the amount of car they were buying - it was underpriced. ie.. a bargain, or car that represented a very high "value" for the money paid.
In that case I would agree completely. Customer Value was very high in the Z compared to it's competition. For the same or slight more money, the 240-Z offered far more "car".
Katayama vs. Nissan Corporate Management.
The battles between the two are well documented (lots of great stories there and case studies as well). Nonetheless, as President of NISSAN USA, Mr. K was also a part of Nissan's Corporate Management and held great influence on Corporate decisions. While most of his peers in Japan (Corporate V.P.'s) were his constant detractors.... he produced results they could not argue with. (I'll have to go find the source again - but as I recall by 1972 Nissan USA accounted for 60% of Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.s total profits).
"World Beating" vs. "World Wide"
Nissan's world beating strategy - effectively won them the battle for the sports car market here on the US battleground..... ie. they beat competitors from all over the world here. The competition in most cases did not recover either.
Did Nissan in the long term wish to expand their sales reach "world wide". I'd have to say of course they did. Was the 240-Z their "flagship" car? I don't think they saw it that way at the time.... but did realize it later at some point. I would agree that they wanted to get at least a few percent of production spread around the world, they did have a few dealers at the time in GB and other European countries.
Why was Nissan/DATSUN so small in Europe?...
1) Protective Trade barriers. As you said, the 240-Z was as expensive (or almost as expensive) as the 911 or E-Type in GB and the rest of Europe. Customer Value again. Compared to a 911 at the same price in Europe, I'd say that the Porsche offered as much or more "Customer Value" and was far a far better known brand.
2) Marketing/Distribution/Dealer Organization - Nissan was simply far smaller in every regard in GB/Europe than they were in the US. They were simply too small a company in 1970 to build and supply a world wide distribution.
Did Nissan design and build the 240-Z as a "world car". NO.
Did Nissan design and build the new 350-Z as a "world car" - A qualified Yes.
Today more and more large manufacturers are aiming their designs at world wide markets. Indeed Nissan reports 350Z sales now in terms of total units sold world wide. World Free Trade has opened up the markets of Europe to far greater extent than in the 60's/70's. How does the Nissan 350Z compare in price to a new 911 style/type Porsche now? Here the 350Z is $30/35K while the 911's are $85/110K. (about the same relative costs... ie. a 911 is still two and half times as expensive as a Z). Are they still priced the same or almost the same in Europe?
Renault and Nissan plan to share several platforms components etc on a global scale. Likewise Ford had tried marketing designs intended for world wide sales in the 80's/90's. It will remain to be seen if that strategy will be successful in the long run.
Capri:
I never have driven a Euro version of the Capri... did drive several US versions with both the 4cylinder and V6). They too were considered competition for sales to the Z. (even if they did have a back seat). They are starting to gain some popularity here now again as collectibles/special interest cars and prices are going up on nice examples.
BTW - here is a nice Z for you. If you send me the money, I'll keep it here in my garage for you until you can pick it up ;-)
http://www.vipclassics.com/stk2029090.phtml
regards,
Carl
Carl Beck
Clearwater, FL USA
http://ZHome.com