40 years of the Z interview

Rob Gaskin

Rob Gaskin

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Fantastic, I feel so lucky to have both cars :bow:

Near the end it was said that he 240Z was more than the sum of it's parts and that is exactly how I feel about mine. There is nothing exceptional in todays terms about any particular part but it just works so well.

I want this interview on tape or DVD. We should sell it under Licence.
 
Rob Gaskin

Rob Gaskin

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Staff member
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Alan, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that you are too critical about these things.

For most of us (and those on the Classic Z thread) that video was an enjoyable watch and also more accurate than most. At least they had the correct people involved - they couldn't bring a team into the vid.

What I would like is another about the technical design details of both 240 and 370 and the thinking behind them.
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Rob Gaskin said:
Alan, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that you are too critical about these things.
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I'm sure you're right. But there were plenty of people who were very happy to lap up the lies that Goertz told too, weren't there?

Putting Matsuo san in this kind of unscripted video interview, without giving him the benefit of proper preparation and a professional interpreter, was bound to lead to a compromised result. It is quite clear that there was a great amount of misunderstanding between the two sides, so why should it be applauded? I'm afraid I'm not of the school of thinking that takes any mention of these cars as good because it helps to 'publicise' them, or brings them to the attention of some new audience. If it wasn't for more than 40 years of prejudice, inaccurate data and plain lies it would not be necessary to hope for the plain and simple truth about them to be reported accurately and fairly in the first place.

Rob Gaskin said:
What I would like is another about the technical design details of both 240 and 370 and the thinking behind them.
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Case in point: You are talking about the "240" and the "370", but I would prefer to see you asking about the 'S30' and the 'Z34'. Pedantic? Perhaps. Correct? I certainly think so. You can't talk about the technical details of one model ( and what do '240' and '370' mean anyway? ) in a range of models without reference to the others. If I'm wrong, then I'd be happy to hear you tell me how and why. As owners and enthusiasts, we should debate these subjects.

As a fairly long-term enthusiast of the S30-series Z range, I've always been astounded at the comparative lack of knowledge shown by the average owner. Your average old British / French / Italian / German / American car owner will usually display far more background knowledge about his or her chosen marque and the story surrounding it than your average Z owner. Why is that? More shockingly, I have sometimes met Z owners who wear their ignorance as a badge of honour. I think the cars - and the people who created them - deserve better than that.

Like I said before, I'm sorry to rock the feelgood boat, but I'm just not the 'Happy Clappy' type.
 
STEVE BURNS

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
As I only saw this yesterday and thought that I would post it up straight away "for owners and enthusiasts to debate the subject" at the earliest opportunity

IMHO it is a shame that it was not posted up early in December by Carl who has been a vistor on here for a while and indeed yourself Alan

You have been a major player in re educating us all (big thumbs) on a lot of misinformation re the Nissan/Datsun story but sometimes I believe that you do not easily help as much as you could straight away

But hey each of us tries to do their bit in their own way
 
STEVE BURNS

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
Come on now Alan how can you be critical about "Mr. Dick Avery who was working at Ford Advanced Styling where he designed what would eventually become the Datsun 240z"

I for one believe on this evidence we have got to the truth of the whole story:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I love the expressions on the face of the lady sitting next to him if ever I saw a starstruck person this is it

Oh the relief of getting to the truth at last
 
SeanDezart

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Albrecht said:
.................I'm afraid I'm not of the school of thinking that takes any mention of these cars as good because it helps to 'publicise' them, or brings them to the attention of some new audience. If it wasn't for more than 40 years of prejudice, inaccurate data and plain lies it would not be necessary to hope for the plain and simple truth about them to be reported accurately and fairly in the first place................As owners and enthusiasts, we should debate these subjects.

As a fairly long-term enthusiast of the S30-series Z range, I've always been astounded at the comparative lack of knowledge shown by the average owner. Your average old British French Italian German American car owner will usually display far more background knowledge about his or her chosen marque and the story surrounding it than your average Z owner. Why is that? More shockingly, I have sometimes met Z owners who wear their ignorance as a badge of honour. I think the cars - and the people who created them - deserve better than that.
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Then there are two schools Alan because I believe that the more ours cars are mentioned, the better they are known and appreciated (albeit with the almost certain publication erreurs which we do our best to avoid when consulted), the more interest in them is generated as they become less ‘fringe’ classic cars and the more people WANT to know the truth and not be ignorant.

I’m confused though – you’ve often said that there is no ‘plain and simple’ truth as no one person was seen to be responsible, Japanese doctrine being a community culture and not individualist and also stated that we may never know the whole truth……I for one am grateful for the crumbs that fall from your table but seriously, the discussions thrown up by articles of ‘any mention’ – most recently in Auto-Rétro over here of you know what owned by you know who.

But people lap up what they are offered – hungry people eat what is in front of them and don’t go looking for it – be careful that you mock - has there been a Z book even with Japanese cooperation without fundamental errors ?

I agree 100% with you that our cars and their creators (whomsoever and wherever they may be – another bandwagon-jumper on the conception of the ‘most successful’ sports-car ever) deserve better ! I’m sure with the right access, that owners of each countrys’ cars must have revelled in information well before Internet and most especially because that information was dissimulated and translated.

Can Japanese owners claim that their knowledge of their cars is better than ours of MGs and Jags for example ? Maybe….but because information on their cars is available in their language. They might even know more than we do about Astons, Triumphs et al…..who knows ? I don’t.

The fact is that info for the typical Z owners in Europe came from where…….the USA and whereas history is always written by the vainquers, history written in one country reflects that which THEY experienced ie racing there, development there, sales there, specification there how THEY made it all happen……and the famous series 1, 1 ½ etc……. !

The point is no-one in Japan gave a fig what we in Europe thought as no info was forthcoming whether official or unofficial – what mattered were sales and the retrieval of importing and marketing control from private entreprises into Nissan” hands.

This last sentence may well be wrong but please, if in your opinion I’m wrong, I’d be happy to see the proof.

Finally, again, I agree that these subjects should be debated and with open minds AND should be a base objective of any owners’ club (objective promotion of the marque) ……and at every opportunity, the truth be conveyed to those with a wider audience….ie the journalists !


ps shouldn't that be Tex Avery ?
 
I

Ian Patmore

Well-Known Forum User
Then there are two schools Alan because I believe that the more ours cars are mentioned, the better they are known and appreciated (albeit with the almost certain publication erreurs which we do our best to avoid when consulted), the more interest in them is generated as they become less ‘fringe’ classic cars and the more people WANT to know the truth and not be ignorant.
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I agree with your point Sean, but unless the relvant correct facts are given when people want to know, the wrong facts just get cast in stone and go viral. All the wrong info just carries on being spread. E.g, I have just writen to an editor of a Toyota UK magzine, pointing out that their article on the Toyota 2000GT has Goertz as the designer (wrongly). This is usual journalist doing poor research and the writer on seeing the viral "romour" thinks it must be true. As Toyota wrote it, everyone takes it as gospel.

All for upping the marque but not with erroneous facts.
 
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T

Throttleton

Well-Known Forum User
Albrecht ( Alan)
I hope you may know of my affection for the 240 and the history of the car.
I don't want to get into the above argument about wether you have a 'contractual obligation to fulfill to someone or something' I'm sure you don't but I have books and books and magazine articles all over the place which appear to be full of tosh.
Do you have the time or interest to produce an article on the forum or even a post on the internet somehow to dispell the innacuracies in the story behind the car.
I'd love to know the real story as most members would.
I know no one want's to do something for nothing but I would make a donation to the club coffers for your efforts.
Cheers
Craig
 
SeanDezart

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Throttleton said:
I know no one want's to do something for nothing but I would make a donation to the club coffers for your efforts.
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I think that you've just dropped off his Christmas card list :rofl:


"All for upping the marque but not with erroneous facts."

......but someone has to educate us - the mass...........:unsure:
 
Rob Gaskin

Rob Gaskin

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I enjoyed this video because I could hear first-hand (not through an interpreter) about some of the design details which made the 240Z so good (I wish my 370Z rear hatch opened so well as the 240Z). The programme also helped to show the lineage through to the 370Z.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

They are fantastic cars; I never thought I would ever own one never mind drive my own 240Z around famous racing circuits. I learn about the practical aspects of owning and modifying them from others on here and I share my experiences with others too. I am not interested at all in the argument about who designed the car, it bores me. My enjoyment is owning and driving the car and sharing that with my family.

Alan you may be astounded by our lack of knowledge of Z’s and their history in the same way as we are astounded by the extent of your knowledge. We enjoy our Z hobby in different ways.

I have been a Z enthusiast for a hell of a long time - in fact ever since they were introduced into this country. I was especially excited when seeing the 'Works' rally 240Zs on the 1970 RAC Rally 'up close and personal'. I have competed against 240Zs as a rally navigator when they were new and a little later (Kevin Videan days). I also went (as a teenager) to visit Cal Withers many years ago and saw a wrecked rally 240Z (Roy Fidler's?) there too – I bet you know the chassis numbers of these cars.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

So I am not ignorant of the cars, I know of them, what they can do, what their values are, where their weaknesses are and I support a club which was based around people who owned them. There are however many people more knowledgeable about all these things, as with any club.

Also my cars to me are a 240Z and a 370Z, that’s what it says on them and that’s what I call them. Most people in this country know them as that whether you like it or not.
<O:p</O:p

To summarise, this video did a pretty good job and I’m sure it wasn’t aimed at someone with your depth of knowledge but people like me. As others have suggested, your energy would be well spent documenting your knowledge to share the true facts with those who want to know them. If you choose to wait until someone says something which is not 100% before enlightening us then it gives the wrong impression. Your help with Kevin Bristow’s RAC car, Big Sam and many many more, even my own suspension is much appreciated.
 
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Rob Gaskin

Rob Gaskin

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Craig (Throttleton), what I would like to know is some of the difficulties of producing a 240Z out of FRP. What aspects of the steel design and shape are difficult to work with etc

Is that something you could share with us or would it let too many secrets out?
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Throttleton said:
Albrecht ( Alan)
I hope you may know of my affection for the 240 and the history of the car.
I don't want to get into the above argument about wether you have a 'contractual obligation to fulfill to someone or something' I'm sure you don't but I have books and books and magazine articles all over the place which appear to be full of tosh.
Do you have the time or interest to produce an article on the forum or even a post on the internet somehow to dispell the innacuracies in the story behind the car.
I'd love to know the real story as most members would.
I know no one want's to do something for nothing but I would make a donation to the club coffers for your efforts.
Cheers
Craig
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Craig,
Thank for your 'offer' - although it reminds me of one of those 'we need a volunteer' parades where everybody with any sense takes one step back, leaving the poor 'volunteer' standing....

I'm afraid that there is - and probably never will be - any one-stop, cure-all 'Tamiflu' style jab that tells you all you might need to know, as well as what you specifically want to know. There are a couple of good books out there ( Brian Long's work is head and shoulders above most of the others in my opinion ) but the real nitty gritty is a little bit more elusive.

I think my best answer is to direct you ( with apologies ) to another forum. Over on classiczcars.com a relatively small band of interested parties have been discussing some of the history surrounding the S30-series Z for something like seven years or more, uncovering many previously untold stories and a wealth of information. Look out particularly for posts from, for example, Katsuhiko ( 'Kats' ) Endo, Chris ( '26th-Z' ) Wenzel, Mike ( 'Mike B' ) Brame and Carl ( 'Carl Beck' ) Beck for some of the best posts. I stick my oar in from time to time too ( I'm 'HS30-H' ). You will notice that there can occasionally be differences of opinion, but it's all usually handled very well and some truth squeezes out from the gaps.

I certainly don't consider myself an 'expert' on the topic. I'm still learning. But when I spot something that has already been shown elsewhere to be wrong, or where the mistake / misconception is obvious ( like in the Moto-Man video interview ) then I feel somebody should point it out. I'm sorry if that annoys anyone, but I'd rather have all the available information laid in front of me than a skewed fraction of it.

Cheers,
Alan T.
 
Albrecht

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Rob Gaskin said:
I am not interested at all in the argument about who designed the car, it bores me.
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Rob,
I've quoted the above on its own because I think it contradicts everything else you write. You might well profess not to care who "designed the car", but I don't see how that can possibly marry with your professed - and obvious - interest in the cars.

I don't see how you can have an interest in the cars - especially on the engineering and performance driving aspects - without being interested in hearing many of the reasons why they are like they are from the people who were directly involved. This is not just about who "designed" ( or, more accurately, 'styled' ) the cars, but more about the engineering and dynamics of the cars.

For example, we could have accepted the stories that Goertz "designed the 240Z", but that would have told us nothing. If you had asked Goertz anything about the engineering and mechanicals of the car, let alone the 'styling', he would not be able to tell you a single thing about it. He simply was not there, and was not involved in any way. Now I'm hoping that - like me - you'd be interested to walk around your 240Z with the likes of Hitoshi UEMURA, Tsuneo BENITANI and Hidemi KAMAHARA; three men who were directly responsible for the engineering of the car, and therefore responsible for much of what you profess to be interested in. If you don't think that would be interesting, educational and - above all - heartwarming, then I don't know what else to say to you.

Rob Gaskin said:
Also my cars to me are a 240Z and a 370Z, that’s what it says on them and that’s what I call them. Most people in this country know them as that whether you like it or not.
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There are many things written on the cars, Rob. Some people even refuse to think of their 'Datsun 240Z' as a NISSAN, even though its written all over the car, and in particularly large letters across the top of the engine.

The reason I would prefer you to write 'S30' instead of '240Z' and 'Z34' instead of '370Z' is that - when referring to design, engineering and production - you cannot talk about one member of a family of models without including the others. There are details and engineering solutions on your car ( and my cars too ) that are there precisely because the other members of the family required them. You may think of them as 'Tits on a bull' if you wish, but personally speaking I'd rather know why a bull has tits than not.

To take this further, '240Z' means almost nothing on its own anyway. Take for example the steering rack on said '240Z'. Is it RHD or LHD? What ratio is it? You won't get anywhere near answering those questions unless you understand what '240Z' you are referring to, and why there were differences in the first place. THAT, in my opinion, is just as important as any question of "who designed the car".
<O:p</O:p


Rob Gaskin said:
As others have suggested, your energy would be well spent documenting your knowledge to share the true facts with those who want to know them. If you choose to wait until someone says something which is not 100% before enlightening us then it gives the wrong impression.
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Well, I apologise for giving "the wrong impression" ( whatever that might be ) but I'm afraid I don't intend to change. If I see something that I know to be wrong, or if I have a differing opinion, then I will reserve the right to do something about it.

Thanks for the 'advice' on how I should use my energy, but I feel I already do document what 'knowledge' I might have. Your comments in this thread are thmeselves a reaction to me doing precisely that. Commercial ( more likely uncommercial ) publishing is quite another thing altogether.....

Regards,
Alan T.
 
T

Throttleton

Well-Known Forum User
Alan ( Albrecht )
Thanks for the links to the Z cars info I will certainly look at that.
This has become a very interesting thread and I hope it doesn't go off tangent and become a daft argument.
Zedhead 260's comment was short but much to the point don't you think?
We are all enthusiasts of the car from one degree to another for a variety of reasons but many would like to read your thoughts in an article commercialy or not.
Be that 'poor volunteer' If you have the time, many would enjoy and learn from it.

Rob... No secrects but should it be a new thread?
 
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