3.1 engine done now...

[SeanDezart]

I think the greatest shock would be for those who read the results and think, 'Christ, if a 3.1 is measured at 'only' 225bhp, my 2.8 is gonna be under that !

But it might all belay the myths that numbers count - this race to have the biggest hp like some of these 900bhp Skylines is (IMHO) all rollocks, publicity stunts and matters little in the driving of said machines.

If anyones' Z with, say, 170bhp gives them a lot of thrills then that is what is important. That said, if one uprates the engine output, please uprate the rest of the car.
Children, don't try this at home unless under strict parental supervision.......

 

[twoforty]

HP numbers are a little missleading anyway....no good having 900HP peak and bugger all anywhere else in the Rev range. Big HP all the way from low down is what I wanted, not something I have to scream the boll**ks off to go fast like Honda VTEC's.
I wish there was a 3.1 owner near me, I'd love to swap cars for 10 mins to see what one drove like.

 

[SeanDezart]

Yep - look at mine -100% of the torque available at under 4000rpm - lovely jubberly ! Why make a car hard to drive ?

 

[Nigel Brook]

I see we are avoiding the cost issue!

 

[SeanDezart]

Cheaper to buy a 6.1 litre chevvy engine methinks ! Or just fit a turbo.......

Here, we're talking N/A L6s - aren't we ?

 

[twoforty]

Sean, I wasn't implying turbo was the only option...I was talking about real world power not amstrad 200w real music power. There are plenty of NA powerful cars around...you've got one.

Yes I guess cost is an issue but then again not really when you look at how expensive modern powerful cars. A friend of mine owns an 05 BMW M3...very nice very fast but 26k! To quote the same guy when I took him for a drive in my car "Sh*t it's like you bending time when you accelerate in this thing"
Sure it doesn't have the luxury but its unique and faster for only a fraction of the cost.

 

[SeanDezart]

I wasn't taking it as such - just expanding the thread a little - I know what you mean by 'real' power against the Amstrad stuff !
Not to get too big-headed, I can have a lot of fun with a lot in reserve meaning that I don't need to bounce rockers and rattle pistons to keep up !

I also have a mate with an M3 who earlir had an NSX and he was shocked by the aggression displayed by my Z - he'd had and has more power but it's more 'linear' and certainly doesn't give anywhere near the rush of adrenaline !

I'm sure I'd be happy with a 1st generation 1.6 litre MX-5 as a fun, rag-top runabout.......but only as a second car - la Z d'abord !

 

[Nigel Brook]

Interestling only this morning I was talking to a well known Datsun engine builder and the subject of 3.1 engines came up. He has built both the 2.8 and 3.1 units, the former on 2" SU's and the latter on triple 48 dellortos. He said that the 3.1 was only marginally quicker than the 2.8 and that on the track he feels the 2.8 could possibly be equal or quicker than the 3.1. He puts a lot of it down to the breathing capabilities of the SU's

 

[SeanDezart]

Race and rally engines tend to be 2.6 - 2.9 for reliability reasons. We are of course discussing road engines.

So 'his' 3.1 was only marginally quicker than his 2.8.........

At JapFest, I was out on the track with Steve Lack and his beautiful 2.8 on twin S.U.s and I stonked him and he knows how to drive, knows his car better than I know mine and the engine is a gem, built by he who restores Supermarine Spitfire Merlin engines - I can't remember his name - Richard ?

Nigel, I would welcome the well-known engine builders' views directly on this thread.

 

[ZHead]

Cheaper to buy a 6.1 litre chevvy engine methinks !

6.0 LS2 with <3000 WARRANTED miles on the clock, including injectors, wiring, ecu, clutch, flywheel, headers, box, the lot, came in at $9001 so with odds and sods ended up at £5,300 delivered to the workshop.

With the best will in the world that is a BARGAIN for that amount of power. We are, however, talking L6 here and specifically a comparison between the Rebello, the Skiddy Special and the DJ engine.... I would love to see them accompanied by a Kameari engine for a sensible, objective, respectful comparison. They will ALL be fine engines.

 

[Albrecht]

Interestling only this morning I was talking to a well known Datsun engine builder and the subject of 3.1 engines came up.

I'd be interested to hear what this "well known Datsun engine builder" had to say about your use of an offset woodruff key. Does he know about it?

Does he ever build Nissan engines?

 

[ZHead]

ONE type of "Shootout" I'd like to see:

*DYNO SHOOTOUT*
One engine ( doesn't matter what spec ) tested on several different engine dynos around the world. Then we'd see which dyno was 'optimistic', which dyno was 'pessimistic', and which dyno was most likely nearest to the truth.

I suspect there would be some fairly yawning gaps between them.

Exactly, which is why I suggested the same dyno on the same day ..... but I was being a tad more gentle about it .......

 

[Ian Patmore]

Blimey,
Turning out to be a good interesting thread.
For any "dyno shoot out" to take place, its fair to ask it takes place on a reputable dyno, that is calibrated often and correctly. Hopefully this would give something near the truth.

Zhead..."being a tad more gentle about it", from a man with a 6 litre V8 in a Z!!!!

The only thing missing from any "dyno shoot out" with say, mine Sean's and Skiddells, is a performance 3.0/3.1 thats running on SU's. Rebello get some good performance on their 3.0/3.1's running on rebored SU's. Do we have anything in the UK....? This would give a range of fuel induction on the N/A set up, throttle bodies, triples and SU's. Good idea/stupid idea?

Cheers
Ian

 

[Nigel Brook]

I'd be interested to hear what this "well known Datsun engine builder" had to say about your use of an offset woodruff key. Does he know about it?

Does he ever build Nissan engines?

Alan: I didn't discuss the OFFSET SPROCKET as I am not going to do it that way, but please bear in mind I am building an historic rally 240 so camshaft adjustment has to be "in period" which as far as I know precludes the fully adjustable cam sprocket.
With regard to "Does he ever build Nissan engines", I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

 

[Albrecht]

Alan: I didn't discuss the OFFSET SPROCKET as I am not going to do it that way, but please bear in mind I am building an historic rally 240 so camshaft adjustment has to be "in period" which as far as I know precludes the fully adjustable cam sprocket.

I'm relieved to hear you are NOT now going to use the offset woodruff key. That would have been an engineering sin.......

Vernier cam sprockets ( not just re-drilled stock ones ) were in use in-period in Japan, and are therefore legal for you to use in the MSA sanctioned historic rally championship races here in the UK. It sounds to me as though you don't have the data that would prove the period use - correct?

With regard to "Does he ever build Nissan engines", I'm afraid I don't know what you mean.

I'm not trying to be cryptic or funny. Take a look at the engine you are building. I think you'll find it has the word 'NISSAN' written on the engine block. It is a Nissan engine, no? The cars we are talking about here were designed, engineered and built by Nissan. I find it hard to refer to them as 'Datsun' products, as that was just a tag applied to them for marketing purposes outside Japan. The real Datsun products were from a far preceding era...........

 

[ZHead]

.

Blimey,
Turning out to be a good interesting thread.
For any "dyno shoot out" to take place, its fair to ask it takes place on a reputable dyno, that is calibrated often and correctly. Hopefully this would give something near the truth.

Absolutely but bear in mind that ultimate horsepower is not necessarily the mark of a good engine, smoothness, tractability, reliability are all of major importance. None of these engines will be anything except top notch but I suspect they will be quite different.

Zhead..."being a tad more gentle about it", from a man with a 6 litre V8 in a Z!!!!

Ok, Ok, Ok ...... it is not in yet, still boxed and ready .... LOTS more work to do before it becomes a car. AT the moment it is a collection of components.

The only thing missing from any "dyno shoot out" with say, mine Sean's and Skiddells, is a performance 3.0/3.1 thats running on SU's. Rebello get some good performance on their 3.0/3.1's running on rebored SU's. Do we have anything in the UK....? This would give a range of fuel induction on the N/A set up, throttle bodies, triples and SU's. Good idea/stupid idea?

Great idea but I suspect we may not find one ..... the more comparisons the better. As I have stated a couple of times before, I would love to see an article on the Rebello, a Kameari, Steve's Pork Pie Special and Sean's DJ built car, not to find "winners and losers" but to compare the best on offer. Getting all of those together at one time would be quite a feat in my book.

There was a great article many many years ago comparing Richard Will's Chevy powered V8 with Clive Standish's Rover powered V8. Both cars came out with glowing reports but the difference in their manners was marked indeed due to the different engine power, weight and car set up.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Albrecht]

Exactly, which is why I suggested the same dyno on the same day ..... but I was being a tad more gentle about it .......

I thought you were suggesting the testing of engines installed in cars - no?

As far as engine power and torque figures are concerned, I'd prefer to see all engines in any shoot-out tested on an engine dyno ( rather than a chassis dyno........... ) as there would be less chance of argument about drivetrain losses etc etc.

But my main point is that we all use and quote figures that are from wildly varying and largely unverifiable sources, and should not expect them to mean very much at all if we are going to use them in a 'Top Trumps' style discussion.

These types of conversation always seem to concentrate on the ultimate power figures, and half the time they forget about the target parameters of use that the engine was intended for, as well as the budget used. The comparison of random engines selected to 'represent' any individual builder really should be undertaken with the said builder's consent, and with a chance for them to explain the scenario behind the build. Otherwise it's just another 'Top Trumps' style willy-waving exercise with the tyranny of peak 'power' overshadowing everything else.

The above comments were written by somebody who is currently working on a six cylinder NA engine for an S30-series Z that is ( proudly! ) less than two thirds the capacity of some of the engines being discussed here. I'll be very happy with around 200 bhp at the flywheel - LOL!

 

[Nigel Brook]

I'm relieved to hear you are NOT now going to use the offset woodruff key. That would have been an engineering sin.......

Vernier cam sprockets ( not just re-drilled stock ones ) were in use in-period in Japan, and are therefore legal for you to use in the MSA sanctioned historic rally championship races here in the UK. It sounds to me as though you don't have the data that would prove the period use - correct?
No I don't

 

[ZHead]

I thought you were suggesting the testing of engines installed in cars - no?

Yes but only because it is the only feasible option without going to a great deal of time and expense

As far as engine power and torque figures are concerned, I'd prefer to see all engines in any shoot-out tested on an engine dyno ( rather than a chassis dyno........... ) as there would be less chance of argument about drivetrain losses etc etc.

100% agreed - the only way to TRULY benchmark engines

The above comments were written by somebody who is currently working on a six cylinder NA engine for an S30-series Z that is ( proudly! ) less than two thirds the capacity of some of the engines being discussed here. I'll be very happy with around 200 bhp at the flywheel - LOL!

This is my point exactly, the actual horsepower is not the be all and end all of the conversation.

For example, engine "A" produces 250BHP at between 6000 and 6500 RPM and engine "B" produces 250BHP smoothly between 3500 and 6500 RPM

Both engines can claim the same BHP figure but the volume under the curve is considerably greater for engine "B" so it will drive in a much more tractable fashion, certainly for my taste.

[/quote]

 

[zedhead260]

I think some people should learnt to use the "quote" function correctly before they go anywhere near an engine - it makes my eyes hurts deciphering !!