3.1 engine done now...

Ian Patmore

Well-Known Forum User
Compression

Sean,
No problem about being asking such a question. Hopefully this explains, though I am not saying its the definative answer, just my impression.

My Rebello engine has a compression ratio of 10.5 to 1, and thus the previous figures. But the other Rebello engine I used as an example earlier produces slightly more than mine, but runs 9.5 to 1 compression ratio and a lower lift cam than mine. There maybe a slight difference between my Dellortos and the other engines Mukini (sp), but the biggest is the cam and compression. On paper mine should produce more, but its down to cylinder head work. Its easy to get the flow figures on the inlet port, but more difficult on the exhaust port. This is where only a small percentage of L series engine builders get right. I would conclude that a Rebello cylinder head probably has a slightly better flow than my Rusch cylinder head. Here is what Dave Rebello sent me in an email;

"Most heads we have seen only flow about 126 CFM on the exhaust with around 190 CFM on the intake. We need 75% of the intake flow on the exhaust which is about 142 at 25" . The math is simple 190 CFM on the intake X 1.5 for a six cyl. is 285 HP. Plus 8% VE is about 310 HP. If we only achieve 65% exhaust flow or less the engine will be exhaust limited and the power will suffer greatly. ".

I don't fully understand this, but I get the gist. Skiddell, maybe you can chime in and give us your imput on the above flow statement.

This question slightly ties in with a previous thread about engine builders in the UK, and the difficulty in getting 100bhp per litre, and what's required and can it be done on carbs. I keep banging on about it in this thread, but its cylinder head work first and foremost.

Zhead, a good idea, but I'm not into "mines bigger than yours", but could be interesting.

Cheers
Ian
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Skiddell, maybe you can chime in and give us your imput on the above flow statement

IMH&HO :unsure:
Calculating horsepower from measured port flow figures is a common practise in head design and will get you a theoretical maximum horse power figure (all things being equal), these are static, head flow figures (usually measured at a specific lift point) and derived on a flow bench, but the L series is extremely sensitive to flow on the overlap cycle (some call it the 5th cycle) this is when both inlet and exhaust valves are open and a scavenging effect is induced by the high gas speed of the preceding "spent" charge(s) moving along the exhaust system, creating a significant vacuum. This scavenging effect allows the cylinder to evacuate fully from the combustion cycle and give the fresh incoming charge, added inertia. Rebellos use of 75% of inlet CFM on the exhaust port, supports and promotes this. However the efficiency of this "overlap" period is dependant on many other factors such as inlet tract diameter, length/design, cam duration/lift on overlap, and header/collector style and dimensions. Get these wrong and you can negate all the calculations and hard work done at the porting stage.

A further consideration is compression, once again according to all that has been written....compression on a big HP L series is KING (On big HP engines, values of 12:1 are not uncommon) this can only be created by the use of small combustion chambers, intrusion crown pistons, thin head gaskets.
For Rebello to have produced such good HP figures is a significant achievement, considering the modest ratios previously mentioned. Clearly they have got the "breathing" absolutely spot on.
But in order to maintain this when it is installed in the car, great attention must be paid to the air induction system/exhaust system (not just the header).

Applying the power will be the next issue...but that’s a good problem to have:D.

The idea of a shootout is noble and I would be first in the queue, but I can see some problems in bringing it all together....doesn’t hurt to try though.

Rob H said:
I'd recommend the GTO replica engine instead
I would agree, its a nasty bast**d (revs like a motorbike) and is a very VERY high spec engine with totally forged internals of Dave's own design, which is almost unique outside of Japan and produces (censored:eek: ) horsepower, Dave should be very proud of it.
 

zedhead260

Well-Known Forum User
Ian Patmore said:
I'm not into "mines bigger than yours", but could be interesting.

It would be very interesting and something I would like very much to pull together.

If people see it as "comparing penis size", then they are totally missing the point.
 

ZHead

Well-Known Forum User
Ian Patmore said:
Zhead, a good idea, but I'm not into "mines bigger than yours", but could be interesting.[/quote]

I think you might have missed the point Ian, who cares who's is bigger than who's...... at the end of the day the biggest c**k can still be a two minute wonder and the worst f**k.

These engines are at the top of the game (OK the GTO might be a teensy bit higher :D ) and are all marvels in their own right. I suspect (from an uninformed perspective) that although they are all based on the L Series, they will all perform slightly differently in terms of BHP, torque and tractability in a real world situation, that is why I suggested several different comparisons not just drag strip or dyno.

Even if we ranked them 1,2 and 3, third place would be leagues above the norm ... they do not need to be ranked at all, I would just love to see al three together. They will ALL be top drawer, superb engines.
 

grolls

Well-Known Forum User
Guys, not wishing to appear negative;) , the biggest mistake people make in forums is to go over peoples heads, many Z owners would love to read a well written article that grabs your attention and is informative of the facts. You, both Ian /Skiddy have provided some brilliant ideas and information on how thigs have progressed although I would suspect that some of the info you are providing switches some people off due the the terminoligy and way items are written. I may be wrong, if so Sorry, but I feel there is considerable interest in what you are both doing with your cars engines, but a lack of engineering background prevents the ingestion of information.
 

Nidge74

New Forum User
grolls said:
lack of engineering background prevents the ingestion of information.

however, I find this extremely interesting in increasing my engineering knowledge, of which I am limited.

A day ago I had no idea about inlet/outlet flows and pressures etc, I just turn a key and drive.

:thumbs:

Sorry Grolls. :eek:
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
I like the idea, even though mine has the lowest output of the four engines here - Skiddys', Ians, and the GTO. I have the graph from the GTO and it is impressive BUT won't make it public without Daves' say-so and I won't ask him !!!

Mine is below (I'm reliably informed that this is the power at the wheels).
Remember that in comparison with the GTO, mine IS a road car and I can pull away at less than 20 mph in fifth without spluttering. It's on 45 Dellortos and as was said, getting the power down is essential - however little or much you have....and that's why I'm up for this as DJ has done a superb job of setting the car up. Yes, if he went at it again on the suspension geometry, I could take laps faster but that would coompromise the general road manners, yes, I could have more power - increase the comp. ratio and change the camshaft but I want an engine that's reliable and doesn't need stripping down once a year.






I have a small penis so need the 3.1 to keep Cathy smiling ! Doesn't stop me smiling too when I use it...or even think about doing so.....or washing it as fast I can.....!
 
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SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Grolls I agree but if only 10% is ingested that's 10% more than otherwise people would have leart - me included...so lay on MacSkiddy !
 

DJZ 60

Well-Known Forum User

There'z room for everyone on this planet. Some people want to push
for extreme'z at the peak level of parameter'z. Other'z want a quite
life ( due to nagging & marital harassment) i.e get in your z, put fuel
into it when needed,take it for an M.O.T (with finger'z crossed) &
drive it whenever time allow'z.
Whatever,as long as personal satisfaction is derived from the
ownership of a Z, the rest doe'snt matter. Development is a good thing
& pioneer'z who seek new bounderies, & limit'z are worthy of praise.
Equally a car can be admired on a still position, motion,
movement,velocity it's all in the moment......... & moment'z become
history as newer moment'z are born.
DJZ 60.:cool:
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
grolls said:
the biggest mistake people make in forums is to go over peoples heads

Yes but isnt that the entire point of a forum.....public debate and opinion no matter how in depth or shallow.
Isnt it better to be presented with the facts rather than yet more myth and hyperbole....at the end of the day you dont HAVE to read it....
Plus theres always the magic button on the top right hand of the window that you can press.

Rob and I have already agreed:p that any magazine article that came out of the back of this "shoot out" would need to be carefully written as all mag articles are (we dont just throw them together you know) how many articles in the magazine (in the last 4 years) are so technical that your eyes glaze over....have faith (although some people find the club calender tricky and in depth:conf2:)

A car is more than the sum of its components/power...its about bringing everything together in harmony, each component working with the next to produce a combined effect, ultimately governed by personal choice....... sure mine will probably give most a suprise down the 1/4 mile but its not all that nice to drive on the road as some of those manners have been compromised in favour of handling and power application and I am sure the same is true to a greater or lesser extent with most high performance cars
 

Ian Patmore

Well-Known Forum User
More...

Skiddell,
I agree with your words in post yesterday. My carb manifold was used instead of buying one, as Dave R. liked the length, and done some work on the inlet tracts. Header will be a USA Nismo one, mated to an exhaust system with plenty of length on each pipe from the end of the header until they meet.

I also agree with other posts. I did not get this engine built to "be top dog", but to be different for myself, try something else, add some different "DNA" into the good but small z scene here, have an engine thats drivable/reliable as well as being at the top area of L series engine performance.

Even though Rebello built the engine, some praise has to go to Paul of Rusch Motorsport for doing the head work in the first place. There is another Rusch motorsports cylinder head now in Europe, and another 2/3 in the pipeline

Cheers
Ian
 

grolls

Well-Known Forum User
SKiddell said:
.at the end of the day you dont HAVE to read it....
Plus theres always the magic button on the top right hand of the window that you can press.

MMMM some what of a childish response...oh well.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Is it possible to have a top-dog engine / car ? I don't think so as :

1) everyones' choice is personal and
2) every car has its' compromises

So there is no top position available but each person (and I don't mean owner) witnessing or reading about any 'shoot-out' will prefer their own 'top-dog'.....whatever floats yer boat !

Skiddys' right.....again (soon gonna have to marry the bloke if we keep agreeing)...a car is the sum of all, working harmoniously together. I love mine and I propose that the 'shoot-out' should include a drive each others' cars for the personal comparison touch - a sort of swapzies !
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
ONE type of "Shootout" I'd like to see:

*DYNO SHOOTOUT*
One engine ( doesn't matter what spec ) tested on several different engine dynos around the world. Then we'd see which dyno was 'optimistic', which dyno was 'pessimistic', and which dyno was most likely nearest to the truth.

I suspect there would be some fairly yawning gaps between them.

;)
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
I believe you !

I'm for it but someone else can arrange (and pay for) the extraction, transportation and installation of my engine !

Who builds reputable 3.1s in Japan ?
 

grolls

Well-Known Forum User
Albrecht said:
ONE type of "Shootout" I'd like to see:

*DYNO SHOOTOUT*
One engine ( doesn't matter what spec ) tested on several different engine dynos around the world. Then we'd see which dyno was 'optimistic', which dyno was 'pessimistic', and which dyno was most likely nearest to the truth.

I suspect there would be some fairly yawning gaps between them.

;)



Your not suspecting "tuned dyno's" are you?:eek: :rolleyes:
 

SKiddell

Well-Known Forum User
Here we have the inherant problems with the chassis dyno, often (mis)quoted and almost never calibrated, operators have differant operating critera and tolerances (and agendas;))

They can turn from a usefull tool to a worthless tool in the blink of an eye and slip of the tongue.

As a comparative tuning tool....invaluable
As a yard stick in a pissing competition....less than useless.

Albrecht said:
ONE type of "Shootout" I'd like to see:

*DYNO SHOOTOUT*

The results would be "entertaining" to say the least, and shocking for some;)
 
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