Values & VIN Swapping

[Alphabettispaghetti]

The DVLA site would seem to suggest that 5 'points' from their criteria come from:

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

Since you can't get these for Z's that would make any complete shell swap (let's leave triggers's broom situations aside) unable to retain it's VIN legally in the UK without a DVLA inspection and approval.

I don't think we should consider the value of cars where a buyer may have been misled about the origins of the shell as this is obviously shady behaviour which the club does not condone.

Any car like that should be given a unique chassis number and put on a q plate. That’s the correct way.

 

[Mr Tenno]

Any car like that should be given a unique chassis number and put on a q plate. That’s the correct way.

Agreed, that certainly seems to be the way the DVLA would like it done. Definitely gets harder when cars are being repaired to this level:

 

[SeanDezart]

Sean, would you sell a vin swapped car? Would you support it as a practice?

I wouldn't know if I have or not - certainly not done so intentionally.

BTW, by a 'VIN swapped car' you obviously mean whether drive converted or not - yes ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Identity swapping....meaning RHD cars with LHD VINs ? That is an identity swap surely ?

There are RHD cars with RHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.
Then there are LHD cars with LHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.

Have these cars changed identity ? RHD = RHD, LHD = LHD - same identity.

RHD car with LHD VIN frequently also with a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced = same identity ?

Anyone care to comment ?

 

[Mr Tenno]

Anyone care to comment ?

I think that's where it gets very tricky. From a legal perspective I imagine anything that's beyond a medium level of rust or accident repair would need an inspection where you'd have to let the DVLA decide what counted as worthy of the original VIN.

From a moral perspective, I'd say it's down to the 'average person' check - if you got a random person off the street to look at the parts that are left from the original shell, would they still consider it a car? If it's just a bulkhead and a couple of pillars.. probably not.

 

[SeanDezart]

Matt - I'm not talking about a pile of bits - I mean a finished car, all complete, painted - the works !

 

[Mr Tenno]

I know, I meant when it was being repaired / modified the owner has to make that call then.

A buyer has to take the car at face-value, even if the seller explains what work was carried out, without an official DVLA inspection the buyer will still expect that the VIN is correct for the car.

 

[johnymd]

I hear there are quite a few Bugatti's out there that have very few of the original parts left on them. How far gone before the car is no-longer able to ware it's original chassis plate/number? A friend of mine a '32 ford. The log book says '32 ford and the chassis plate is original but that's about it. Everything else new including the fiberglass body. Lots of famous and not so famous race cars no-longer have their original body shell. It's only now that the values are going up that people are starting to ask questions.

Getting back to zeds. To me the most important thing about a zed is its shell. I could never afford or want to spend £30k+ on a totally original rust free UK car but I probably could afford a LHD shell in the same or better condition that's been converted to RHD. So for a lot less money you can have a RHD 240z that's in equivalent condition to an extremely rare RHD UK car. I would have a guess on there being only a handful of UK rust free, never welded cars around and its extremely hard to find one for sale. With regard to value, I'd pay more for an immaculate LHD car than a rusty repaired UK RHD car.

 

[IbanezDan51]

Lets be honest, any handy man could easily do the vin swap without it being traceable.

That's probably why that car on eBay I posted has already gone over 2k - someone will swap out the shell and retain the vin and make out its an original car with no welding and no rust - yeah and bears don't **** in the woods.

 

[SeanDezart]

.....the buyer will still expect that the VIN is correct for the car.

And your definition of 'correct' is ?

.... but I probably could afford a LHD shell in the same or better condition that's been converted to RHD. So for a lot less money you can have a RHD 240z that's in equivalent condition to an extremely rare RHD UK car. I would have a guess on there being only a handful of UK rust free, never welded cars around and its extremely hard to find one for sale. With regard to value, I'd pay more for an immaculate LHD car than a rusty repaired UK RHD car.

You're referring to an identity swap then : RHD VIN on what was originally a LHD chassis but in any case - a different chassis to that wearing the VIN when it left the factory.

 

[Albrecht]

I think that's where it gets very tricky. From a legal perspective I imagine anything that's beyond a medium level of rust or accident repair would need an inspection where you'd have to let the DVLA decide what counted as worthy of the original VIN.

From a moral perspective, I'd say it's down to the 'average person' check - if you got a random person off the street to look at the parts that are left from the original shell, would they still consider it a car? If it's just a bulkhead and a couple of pillars.. probably not.

The concept of 'Continuous History' comes into play. I don't have a problem with it. We have to be pragmatic. Same thing happens with listed buildings and Supermarine Spitfires.

What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.

As a general rule, if it's done with the aim of deceit then it's a no-no.

 

[Mr Tenno]

And your definition of 'correct' is ?

For me, the correct VIN on a shell is the one that corresponds to a significantly large % (at the very least more than half) of the metal of the shell including the bulkhead.

 

[richiep]

Sean, he's referring to a LHD car on its original VIN, that has been converted. RHD converting is not changing its original identity. Identity swapping in legal terms is focussed primarily on taking the VIN from one car and putting it in another. Unless radical modifications have occurred that infringe the 8-point rule. I'd argue (and it may be in the clubs interest to argue if asked) that a Z RHD swap doesn't infringe that as the original bulkhead doesn't experience radical chopping about, which is what upsets the DVLA. Most changes are moving spot welded bits and welding up holes. Moving the steering to RHD MIGHT lose 2 points under the system, but that also may be arguable because usually people use factory original column/rack etc.

Quite frankly, given the direction the DVLA are going and the MOT changes next year, this kind of conversation being held on an open forum is unwise. Classic car owners face enough potential risk from DVLA interference depending on how they implement their new plans without discussions such as this shining a spotlight on a particular marque.

 

[Mr Tenno]

The concept of 'Continuous History' comes into play. I don't have a problem with it. We have to be pragmatic. Same thing happens with listed buildings and Supermarine Spitfires.

What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.

As a general rule, if it's done with the aim of deceit then it's a no-no.

I agree, very murky -

If it's a patchwork of panels all repaired over time: It's an original car with history.

If it's getting the best part of 50% new steel from a donor car in one go or a new bulkhead: It probably needs a DVLA assessment to determine if it can still be considered original or not.

As you say, it all comes down to honesty in the end. If I bought a Z, I'd expect that most of the metal in the car had left the factory at the same time, in the same car, stamped with the same number as it's now wearing.

 

[Dougs260z]

Taking a Vin from another vehicle in order to increase its valuation and to sell it on is fraud. If caught you would deserve all you get. If you import a LHD to UK and convert to RHD it must retain its HLS30 VIN code.

People who do this should be expelled from this club.

However

Many car shells in genuine UK cars are in poor condition and need extensive work including my own, but I would not consider re-shelling it even though it would have been cheaper to do so. it will cost me a arm and a leg to get this done right, but in the end I can sleep easy at night.


£1000 for V5 for a chrushed car shows what is really going on.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Datsun-26...763152?hash=item25e232b210:g:~ZUAAOSwKM5Z3eVB

Douglas

 

[IbanezDan51]

He has loads for sale! He should be dealt with fairly...

 

[Dougs260z]

I really hope that this is a police sting operation.
When I buy a Z car and its advertised and given paperwork is a UK registered car, I expect that most of this car is original not a re-registered US import.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Datsun-26...763152?hash=item25e232b210:g:~ZUAAOSwKM5Z3eVB

There is a dark place in hell for people who are doing this, what impact on existing genuine UK car values when it is discovered there are some that are re-registered US cars?

It is important to maintain honestly to preserve the faith in car buyers, and important to get as many Z's on the road as possible, but not at any cost.

 

[chrisvega]

Seller of the V5 is deluded.
It's a 2+2
8 owners in 8 years, wasn't a very loved car then was it.....

Seriously, selling a V5 without a car which was scrapped and never notified to DVLA, now that should be illegal !

 

[uk66fastback]

So I presume SELLING that V5 isn't illegal, but then using it to change a car's ID, obviously IS ...

Changing a LHD Z to RHD should be fine, but as someone said, it should then retain the original VIN it left the factory with.

To try and pass off that converted car as a genuine RHD car (from any country) - well, catch this book, cos it's coming your way.

It's FRAUD - nothing less.

 

[SeanDezart]

What I have a problem with is people swapping chassis numbers and identities for reasons of convenience and/or business profit. It's a grey area that gets increasingly murky the more you look into it.

Grey is the word, murky is another good one - so it isn't black and white - legal vs. illegal and all depends whether done deceitfully ? All a bit subjective though.....and surely reshelling is 'profit' relative ie it'll cost less to re-shell than repair :

Many car shells in genuine UK cars are in poor condition and need extensive work including my own, but I would not consider re-shelling it even though it would have been cheaper to do so......

Sean, he's referring to a LHD car on its original VIN, that has been converted. RHD converting is not changing its original identity. Identity swapping in legal terms is focussed primarily on taking the VIN from one car and putting it in another.

If you import a LHD to UK and convert to RHD it must retain its HLS30 VIN code.

Changing a LHD Z to RHD should be fine, but as someone said, it should then retain the original VIN it left the factory with.

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but surely a LHDVIN number should be attached to a LHD Z ?
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN. One or t'other is no more or less legal.

The only difference appears to be in your (all of you) estimated end-values of each type of car.....with all the money (and therefore incentive for fraud) going on the RHD VIN with RHD chassis.

How many buyers could and would search for the tell-tale signs ?