Le Mans '75 - '76

[SeanDezart]

Wondered if anyone would like to comment, I'm not sure to believe this :

The 1976 240Z was equipped with a 2.8 LY, good for 300bhp although noted as 2565 as it was supposed to be a 260Z and should therefore have run in the GR3 class but was in fact running in the GT class.

In 1975, the 240Z was entered in the GTS class, under GR4 or 5 with an engine supposedly 2393

June 1975 - first Japanese car classed at Le Mans with a best time of 4m33s


In 1976, during the first qualifying session, with 'just' 260bhp, the car couldn't do a time that would potentially qualify.

During the night, still when the session wasn't finished, the official German Nissan winner of the east African Safari rallye of 1971 arrived with a new 300 bhp engine. During the Wednesday night, the mechanics worked hard to switch the engines which allowed Luc Favresse to qualify the car with a time of 4m30s and the Z was 25th on the starting grid !

Comments ?

 

[datsun dave]

were did the text come from ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Not telling 'til I have some more comments - nothing personal mate !

 

[datsun dave]

We both know who can answer this question "Mr Z Bible" to tell the truth i dont know.

 

[SeanDezart]

Well, he'll call me a wally again but I'll just turn the other cheek !

Personally, I don't think it's true but Schuller was a wily one and had contacts everywhere - how else does one explain getting a 240Z (if it really was one - could have been a Fairlady Z - it was Japanese in origin) entered on 260Z works' plates.....

Was written by a Z 'specialist' !

 

[datsun dave]

Is it my turn to call you a wally ?

Hows the Z sale going ?

 

[SeanDezart]

It's up to £51 and ninepence - hardly worth me answering the phone for......

 

[datsun dave]

what are you going to do let it run ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Yep.....until a few hours before unless I'm happy with the price !

Look at the good parts you can get - listed under ad. !

 

[datsun dave]

with it a early 240Z shame to break her

no one in France wants a project ?

 

[Albrecht]

Well, he'll call me a wally again but I'll just turn the other cheek !

Sean,
I'll only call you a wally if you again repeat other people's mistakes and propaganda without thinking about it.

I've just come home from work ( shagged out ) and I feel the need to start correcting this. I must be a hopeless case.

How's about this bit for starters:

"The 1976 240Z was equipped with a 2.8 LY, good for 300bhp although noted as 2565 as it was supposed to be a 260Z and should therefore have run in the GR3 class but was in fact running in the GT class."

I'm surprised you let this one slip past you Sean ( unless the year quoted is your typo? ). You can see the 1976 engine quite clearly from the crash aftermath photos. Look like an 'LY' crossflow to you? If it does, you need to go to Specsavers.

It was, however, running individual throttle-bodied injection.........

The quotes regarding capacities seem to imply that the writer doesn't fully comprehend the bores and strokes of the Works engines. Or is that just me? Have you translated this from a language other than English?

I'm not discounting the possibility that an 'LY' engine could have been amongst the parts that the team had access to ( either coming with the car when sourced from Nissan, or via Schuller's 'Nippon Speed Car' company and/or his good Nissan connections ), but the engine installed and used during the 1976 race was certainly NOT an 'LY'....... was it?

I'll be very busy over the next couple of days ( Japanese magazine crew in tow ) so it might be some time before I get back to this thread. I suggest you spill the beans in the meantime

 

[DR ROB]

Sean,
I am not aware of the situation as to how the 240Z came to the Le Mans grid in 1976, but I am aware of the qualifing times and starting positions of the grid. Unfortunately French drivers Buchet, Favresse & Haller 's Datsun 240 Z (N°73) which was run by Sion Autos 2001 quailfed in 49th with a time of 4'30"200 and an average speed of 181,732 kmh. Their Technical data was:

Class : Gr 4
Engine : L6 Datsun 2565 cm3
Tyres : Goodyear

Hope this is of use.

 

[SeanDezart]

Thanks Count and Dr Rob - all is appreciated and I will 'spill the beans' soon !

Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the burnt-out wreck of the '76 car to show the 'offending person' that it wasn't an LY engine - anyone email me/post up one here .... please ?

 

[SeanDezart]

http://datsunzclubfrance.free.fr/le%20mans%201975%201976/index.html

The 'LY' and engine size references were added by a person who assumed that in order to have 300bhp, it would have had to have been a cross-flow head. Call me a wally then......

But there are some errors on this page - no ?

 

[Albrecht]

The 'LY' and engine size references were added by a person who assumed that in order to have 300bhp, it would have had to have been a cross-flow head. Call me a wally then......

Hang on, are you saying that you assumed it must have been an 'LY' - so you decided to add that bit in yourself.............???????

Er, that's not particularly scholarly, is it? I don't really know what to say to somebody who would do something like that. Except perhaps suggest a possible career opening in tabloid journalism, Estate Agency or even politics.

You see now how bullsh*t becomes 'fact'.....




"300bhp" is also a nice round and convenient figure, isn't it? Did you never question that?

 

[SeanDezart]

Hang on, are you saying that you assumed it must have been an 'LY' - so you decided to add that bit in yourself.............???????

No, I said that someone ELSE assumed that.........! And admitted that to me AFTER I had posted !

Er, that's not particularly scholarly, is it? I don't really know what to say to somebody who would do something like that. Except perhaps suggest a possible career opening in tabloid journalism, Estate Agency or even politics.

You see now how bullsh*t becomes 'fact'.....

I am well aware of how easy bullshit is to disperse and have believed - what about the bullshit I quoted re the James Taylor LY head and its origins in a previous post - easy to make something up and people believe it !

Another reason why I count upon you Count !

"300bhp" is also a nice round and convenient figure, isn't it? Did you never question that?

Sure I questioned that in my head but I have no information to counter it with. THAT'S why I posted the info. , to see what others thought. Unfortunately, I am in a small minority of people who actually care about what happened in the past, I want the truth to be known and I do my best at every opportunity to diperse the truth.

The problem as you well know is that the truth has been either lost, glossed over or smothered with half-truths and downright bull-shit. I remember a discussion that you participated in on classiczcar in which an hypothese was advanced that surely the Le Mans car couldn't have been a 260Z ! That wasn't so long ago was it ?

Please don't bother to repaet yourself saying 'if you care that much, you'll make the effort to find out' ! I don't have the time or the energy/resources to do so but I do have the contacts to disperse the truth in one of Europes' biggest Z markets and in a country where the Z participated in two of the Worlds' most famous motorsport competitions !

In an aside, I was there Saturday when the owner of the Le Mans Classic Z collected it to probably stay in a garage under a dustsheet for a long time (until Le Masn Classsic 2008 ?). But the car is still present and eligible for racing.....!

Last bit; the President of the A.C.O has commissioned a '75 Le Mans replica Z, someone else has too and there are two more Zs on the way to being prepared for The Monte Carlo historic rally !

 

[Albrecht]

No, I said that someone ELSE assumed that.........! And admitted that to me AFTER I had posted !

You made it sound like you wrote some of it.

Curious that they would write that an 'LY' was being used in the '76 race ( extra curious that they would use the correct factory term for what normally gets called "the Crossflow" ) when the crash-aftermath photos clearly show it not to be the case.......

Sounds to me like they've been reading something I might have written ( ??? ). I don't recall many people in Europe or the USA correctly calling a "Crossflow" an 'LY' until relatively recently. Google 'LY' and see what you find........

I remember a discussion that you participated in on classiczcar in which an hypothese was advanced that surely the Le Mans car couldn't have been a 260Z ! That wasn't so long ago was it ?

Ages ago now I think, and if I recall correctly it was me that was pointing out that the Le Mans car was clearly not a "260Z", and more specifically not the ex-Works RLS30 rally car that the '6466' carnet plate was borrowed from. Hardly anybody seems to have noticed that the rally car in question was LHD and the Le Mans car was RHD, let alone the obvious body manufacturing type and date clues.

The '6466' identity switch is one of the main reasons for urging caution on all other stated data. You just can't trust it.

In an aside, I was there Saturday when the owner of the Le Mans Classic Z collected it to probably stay in a garage under a dustsheet for a long time (until Le Masn Classsic 2008 ?). But the car is still present and eligible for racing.....!

Last bit; the President of the A.C.O has commissioned a '75 Le Mans replica Z, someone else has too and there are two more Zs on the way to being prepared for The Monte Carlo historic rally !

.........all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the car that ran in '75 and '76, and therefore is not of any interest to me whatsoever. Shouldn't even be discussed on the same page.

 

[SeanDezart]

Ages ago now I think, and if I recall correctly it was me that was pointing out that the Le Mans car was clearly not a "260Z", and more specifically not the ex-Works RLS30 rally car that the '6466' carnet plate was borrowed from. Hardly anybody seems to have noticed that the rally car in question was LHD and the Le Mans car was RHD, let alone the obvious body manufacturing type and date clues.

The '6466' identity switch is one of the main reasons for urging caution on all other stated data. You just can't trust it.

Exactly and it also gives people the idea that anything goes, I mean that all sorts of skullduggery might have been (and probably was) involved with racing.
That many Z fans in Europe don't have access to even 50% of the true facts doesn't stop people speculating - rather it encourages them ! If people know the truth - it calms down. But people are people and prefer to believe that which is easier to believe a) that we know more than the Japanese and in fact taught 'em all they do know and b) a series of 'facts' that fit the picture - jigsaw puzzle solved - onto the next one !
Another trait is that people prefer the romanticism of a 'misty' history, a bit murky and one that involves a Z getting one over the establishment - throw a big spotlight on the story and it loses it's attraction !

.........all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the car that ran in '75 and '76, and therefore is not of any interest to me whatsoever. Shouldn't even be discussed on the same page.

If you say so - I shan't mention it to you again - ok ?

Going back to the subject - did the engine get changed in order to better qualify ?

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

le mans engine

Yes it was me that supposed, (and in same time it was a question...) after reading what Sean tell in the web site of this Z specialiste, that perhaps it would have been and LY Engine...

As it was mentionned that the Engine give 300 BHP, i don't think it could be done with a normally aspirated 2565CC engine no?

And as LY L28 was used in Japanes racing circle, what was better for 300BHP? no??

and crossflow engine were used in rally here with 2,5l FI engine but they not give more than 280BHP and mostly 255BHP...

And probably 2,5 L (not crossflow) engine with fuel injection were used in rally but couldn't give also 300 BHP no??, mostly 240 bhp?

what is the true???

stop to speak about picture that show the engine, let us see it too, so put this picture...and we could speak clearly about the possibility about the engine configuraiotn for LE MANS races...

first, is it sure that this is a fuel injected engine?
and if yes, is it a mechanics fuel injection or electronic FI, and is it use WEBER bodies?

Thanks you

Benoît

 

[Albrecht]

Benoit,
First of all, let me make one thing quite clear to you ( and to Sean ). When you are researching events that actually happened ,and you are intending to learn something from them and continue with your research ( and in the process lay down 'markers', clues and facts for others that follow you ) it is simply no good to guess at things and then write them down as though they are facts. All you are doing is laying traps for others to fall into. If you lay enough of these traps, you will even find that there comes a point where you fall into one yourself; effectively having tricked yourself into believing your own mistakes.

I think you need to do a lot more basic research into this subject before you both start distorting the facts, and fooling other people into believing that you know what you are talking about. You obviously do not.

Both yourself and Sean have mentioned another website ( of some "Z Specialiste" - ???? ) without giving any clues as to where this site is on the 'net, or what you are both discussing over there. It seems to me that you are both teasing facts out of me and running back to the site involved to present them triumphantly for others to digest either in or out of context. What a waste of time.

As it was mentionned that the Engine give 300 BHP, i don't think it could be done with a normally aspirated 2565CC engine no?

And as LY L28 was used in Japanes racing circle, what was better for 300BHP? no??

You keep writing "300BHP" all the way through this, but where do you get that figure from? Have I not already mentioned that it is a nice, convenient and round figure? Are you sure that it is documented fact and was never part of some team publicity or journalistic hype? You need to ask yourself some more questions about that figure.

Japanese works circuit race cars were easily producing over the figures you quote in period. The problem for you is that you know nothing about them.

Trying to guess at engine specification from a dubious quoted BHP figure ( of no provenance ) is pure madness. You are chasing your own tail.

.....and crossflow engine were used in rally here with 2,5l FI engine but they not give more than 280BHP and mostly 255BHP...

And probably 2,5 L (not crossflow) engine with fuel injection were used in rally but couldn't give also 300 BHP no??, mostly 240 bhp?

Why are you comparing BHP figures between rally cars and circuit racing cars? Do you honestly think that Nissan built rally and circuit race engines to exactly the same specifications?

What is your fascination with these BHP figures anyway? Surely the specifications of the engines concerned are much more important, and you would certainly learn very much more about the car concerned if you took a quite different approach and ignored any quoted BHP figures. You need to start at the beginning.............

And I'm deeply suspicious of anybody who wants to discuss engine power figures without ( it seems ) any mention or question about the bodyshells and drivetrains of the cars involved. It sounds like a zcar.com level of interest.........

.....stop to speak about picture that show the engine, let us see it too, so put this picture...and we could speak clearly about the possibility about the engine configuraiotn for LE MANS races...

I didn't really want to show any post-crash pictures of the car when there was a fatality involved. I find it distasteful, disrespectful to the relatives and friends of the driver, and just plain bad karma. But to make the point ( and to make you both shut up about it ) I have cropped a picture so that it shows just the engine bay. See below.

You can see quite clearly that it is not an 'LY', but you will also ( possibly? ) spot that it is not a 'normal' L-gata, and that it is an FIA-homologated 'Safari' head. Quite a different casting to the 'normal' production-based L-gata cylinder heads, and it is using Nissan's 'ECGI' individual throttle-bodied injection setup. In which case your guesses about possible BHP figures need some revision, don't they?

first, is it sure that this is a fuel injected engine?
and if yes, is it a mechanics fuel injection or electronic FI, and is it use WEBER bodies?

Look at the picture, and read what I wrote. I know what I am talking about.
The throttle bodies were NISSAN units, actually manufactured for them by DENSO.






You - being based in France and fluent in French - are in a much better position to research the car in question than I am. And when I write "research" I don't mean Google, Wikipedia or Yahoo. You need to start looking for the people involved at the time.........

I am also mindful that Sean has been doing some "research" on behalf of some people who built a car ( originally supposed to be a "replica" of the actual '75 & '76 Le Mans car ) that I want nothing to do with, and I don't intend to help them in any way. They need to do their own work rather than taking a free ride on somebody else's. There's a LOT more going on behind the scenes than you both realise.