Le Mans '75 - '76

Thanks for your answer

First you'r right if we right that that was some fact, it'will be not a help in the quest of true...
but i never say or write that that was fact!!! but more some question about the history "why not i could be "perhaps...

I know the difference between a race circle engine and a rally engine, the BHP figure are more to tell what power is know to be possible with those engine in different configuration...

Thanks for the picture

Ben
 
So we could say sure it's not a crossflow engine, but probalby L serie with special head and Nissan's 'ECGI' individual throttle-bodied injection setup

and about the cc's 2565 seem's to you to be realistic?

"when i speak about the works rally engine, i would to say the same based of engine, 2,5 "2498CC" with FI", as already seen to the Monte carlos rally,
could it be the same base for the le mans engine, but rebored to 2565 or an L28 with an L24 caracteristic crankshaft perhaps?

Or a different displacement?

FI seem to be different than those use in work rally z car, an idea of witch model is use in the montecarlos z car in 1973?

About the head i don't know how you could see it was not a normal Z head in the picture...but i' m not an expert

did you speak about parts n° 11042-E4622 with hemispheric chamber and round exhaust port?:conf2:

About the link to the web site, it is broken actually so you couldn't see it

Lot of thinks have been writen about Z in race, but i always take them as "possible to be" in mind and "not perfectly sure..."

And why did you think that we distorting the fact? we never say that we have all the true about Le mans, we just search what is more possible to be the right story...and for that we could put some hypothesis

I assume that you didn't know all what you seems to know, i a clac of fingers!!! let us learn
 
Dear Count,

Once again you misjudge me ! I don't look for glory by quoting elsewhere what I've learnt through you - yes, I sometimes tease it out of you - sorry !

What I do is try to carry on the lords' good work and educate those who have lesser means than I to find this info (I mean the Enhlish language and who to approach) !

When I see 'un-truths', I try to correct them - often upsetting journalists and the recent book writer and some very strong-minded long-standing Z amateurs ! Tough on me but you've shown me the light and I carry it into dark places ! No, I'm not taking the p**s, I'm sadly very serious !

I wanted to help Benoit because he is building a competition car with Eric - nothing more !

We've already discussed the 'replica' that was built and I tried to make sure it was built as a respectful replica but.......... ! At least it stayed white - eh ?

This is the text Benoit referred to ;

http://datsunzclubfrance.free.fr/le mans 1975 1976/index.html

Lors de la première seance d'essais, la Datsun, avec ses 260
CVn'avait pu effectuer un temps qui la mettait dans les qualiffies
potentiels.
Mais dans la nuit, alors que les essais n'etaient pas encore
termines, le pilote officiel Nissan (Allemagne) vainqueur de l'East
African Safari en 1971, arrivait avec un moteur neuf de 300 CV.
Dans la nuit du mercredi à jeudi, les mecanos travaillaient d'arrache
pied et equipait la 260 z d'un moteur de 300 CV, qui permettait au
jeune pilote manceau, volant Gitanes 1975, Luc Favresse,
d'effectuer un chrono de 4mn 30 qui qualifiait la voiture.
La Datsun partait en 25° ligne....

Web-translated as :

At the time of the first meeting of tests, Datsun, with its 260 CVn' had been able to carry out a time which put it in the potential qualiffies. But in the night, whereas the tests did not etaient yet finish, the official pilot Nissan (Germany) victorious of East African Safari in 1971, arrived with an engine nine of 300 CV. In the night of Wednesday at Thursday, the mecanos worked of tear off foot and equipait the 260 Z of an engine of 300 CV, which allowed the young pilot manceau, stealing gipsy 1975, Luc Favresse, to carry out a stopwatch of 4mn 30 which qualified the car. Datsun left in 25° line....

on the Datsun Z Clubs' web-site, managed by Zpassion. No connection whatsoever with me and www.datsun-france.com

Now, it's possible that it was copied from somewhere else - a book perhaps or was quoted directly by zpassion - I don't know but when I see things like this, I want to know if they're true or not. If they're not, I want to see them corrected !

You would probably say 'why bother' ? Cos I care and it's stronger than me !

Albrecht said:
There's a LOT more going on behind the scenes than you both realise.
Click to expand...
If YOU only knew ;)
 
hi everybody

i am not a Z specialist, but i am a Le Mans specialist, working each year to write some stories wich can be display in the Press Room during the 24 Hours.
(I wrote some about Lola, De Cadenet, Peugeot,...etc)
So for 2008, i will try to write something about japanese car at Le Mans.

So that is what i know right now :r

The Z was the fisrt japanese car to try to enter the race in 1972 thru the Motor Racing Facilities Ltd of Robert Grant . The car was an ex-works rally car. With Martin Birranne (Lola boss ) and Serge Trosch (dont know anything about him) they failed to qualifiy with the 63th time (only 55 cars were allowed to start) The car had a standart body with bubble on the headlight.
dont know about the chassis number !

In 73, Grant ask the ACO to participate, but ACO said no
end of the story !

In 1975 (it was a poor year for Le Mans) ACO accepted the entry coming from Andre Haller (a french man from Strasbourg who own a restaurant) but the car was own by Schueller who own a Datsun business in germany (where ?) i dont know anything about Benoit Maechler (he was also from Alsace) So Alsace and Germany teamed to entered the car. This car was coming from Japan with another car (which still exists). The car had a G nose (wich was not sold in Europe) and had a japanese licence plate from another the car (the sister car ?, another Rally car ?) They did not qualify but went in the race, because of another team was in trouble with ACO,and despite of some differntial problem, finished the race. First japanese car to be classified !

that means that they won the right to entered in 1976 ; the same car was entered par Sion Autos 2001 (a swiss auto dealer. Owned by Schuller ?).
Drivers was Andre Haller, Claude Buchet (a french driver who own a garage and entered several time Le Mans) and Luc Favresse who won at the end of 1975 the "Volant ACO". Schuller was also on the car, but he had no time in qualification so he could not drive for the race. during practice they had a problem with the engine, so Schuller went home to pick another engines for the 2nd practice. Favresse qualify the car. And Haller had a crash during the race and lost is life.

End of the story for Datsun 240 Z in Le Mans;

Do you have some more story about ?
Thanks a lot
 
AMICALEMANS,
I recognise your screen name from Ten Tenth's and AtlasF1/TNF forums I think?

AMICALEMANS said:
......but the car was own by Schueller who own a Datsun business in germany (where ?)
Click to expand...

Hans Schuller's company was called 'Nippon Speed Car GmbH'. I think you can find out more if you investigate the old company name.

AMICALEMANS said:
This car was coming from Japan with another car (which still exists).
Click to expand...

It was a little more complicated than that.
The car used in the '75 and '76 races was indeed originally prepared in Japan ( it was a proper Works circuit race car ) but it came to Schuller and Haller via South Africa. It had been taken there originally by Nissan as a Works entry in the 9 Hours of Kyalami in 1973 ( one of two Works 240Z cars at the event ) and was left in South Africa by Nissan for some local racers to use in the remaining races of the Springbok Series. They entered it in the Cape Three Hours race, but after that the remaining races of the Springbok Series were cancelled, and the car was left with nowhere to race. Schuller's good South African Nissan and Japanese Nissan contacts enabled him to facilitate the car going to France. Haller used the car in some small local races in France before the Le Mans entry..........

AMICALEMANS said:
This car was coming from Japan with another car (which still exists).
Click to expand...

I wonder if this "other car" you are referring to is the one ( silver in colour, with big bubble arches ) that is owned by M. Pierre Bourgoin? If so, then I can tell you that this was NOT ever a Works competition car, and was in fact Andre Haller's personal road car ( he was a Datsun dealer ) and was originally a standard European market road specification HLS30 'Datsun 240Z' model.

Some years ago M. Bourgoin seems to have told a Japanese magazine ( who should have known better ) that this car was the 'original' Le Mans entry car. Of course it is not, and is nothing like it. Presumably he has changed his story somewhat since then?

AMICALEMANS said:
The car had a G nose (wich was not sold in Europe) and had a japanese licence plate from another the car (the sister car ?, another Rally car ?)
Click to expand...

The Japanese 'Carnet' ( temporary export use ) number plate 'TKS33 SU 6466' seen on the rear of the Le Mans car in 1975 was never belonged to this car. It was originally taken from a genuine LHD Works '260Z' rally car that Schuller's 'Nippon Speed Car' company had used previously, and was most likely added to the Le Mans entry car in order to back up it's paperwork and Group 4 eligibility. This was probably the only way that the car would have passed scrutineering and been accepted by the ACO.

There is much more behind this story if you have a wish to dig in the dirt, but it might ruffle some feathers even after all this time. At the very least, all you need to know is that the Le Mans car and the ex-Works rally car number plate 'TKS33 SU 6466' did not belong together.........

AMICALEMANS said:
Do you have some more story about ?
Thanks a lot
Click to expand...

I can tell you more - but probably best to converse by PM or e-mail.
 
Albrecht said:
I can tell you more - but probably best to converse by PM or e-mail.
Click to expand...


Left dangling over a cliff with a noose round my neck and a candle slowly burning away at the rope!!!!:eek:
 
Thanks a lot dear Albrecht
The story of Datsun in Le Mans interest me because, as i did for De Cadenet, Lola, Peugeot and some others brand or subject, I wrote each year a file to be displayed in the 24hours of Le Mans press room. i am a part of Infos Course Association and we work (not paid for it) for the ACO. In 2008, we will have, i hope, a new japanese brand in the race : Acura. So; I decide to wrote something about Japanese brands in Le Mans !
I thank you a lot for your answers.
I am just looking for “fun stuff” !
And I have some more few question :
-In my files, André Haller owned a restaurant in Strasbourg, you told me that he was a Datsun dealer, so I confused : do you know where in Alsace ?
-what about Maechler ?

For 75, I understand what the car came from. It was a Japanese works car, then purchased by Schuller. He was, I think friend with Haller (germany is very close from Alsace and they speak the same language !) So Haller, who is French ask ACO to enter the car (more easy to be accepted) The car had paper from another car (that’s a common trick in Le Mans, no doubt about that !)
I don’t mind about the sister car of Bourgoin (I don’t know him and he is not a ACO official) he own an old car of Haller. And everybody know that the real car was destroyed in 76 !

For 76, I think that the car (and drivers) was not quick enough so that is why they added Luc Favresse in the team just after the first practice session. Favresse won the “volant ACO” at the end of 75, and ACO helped him to find a car to participate at Le Mans. There is a story about Schuller (who did not drive during practice) who went home to pick a more powerful engine, on wenesday night. And then Favresse set the time on thursday night. Funny that I met Favresse in 1982 (I was trying to purchase a Pantera and he was trying to sold one !) but at this time I did not recognize him as a Le Mans driver !
I should ask, Claude Buchet, who is still alive and is the CEO of a Le Mans company (http://www.sarr.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=47) about that, if you don’t know.

I repeat : I am just looking about some good, unknown or fun story about this Datsun, with a non common nose (for Europe)

So the body shell was an “old” works 240 Z prepared for racing. In 76, some people named it 260 Z just to be updated with …1976 and because the 240 was not anymore in production. And also the engine was different…

What about Sion Autos 2001, which I believe was a Switzerland dealer in Sion ? Owned by Schuller ?

thanks
 
Just for the record, Bourgoin holds a Peugeot dealership near Poitiers and we believe has sold the 240Z to concentrate 'racing' his single seaters !

It still seems apt to continue calling it 'the Bourguin car' after it (and his) notoriety. When questioned, he did say that it was the magazine who got it wrong - well, he would wouldn't he ?

You see Count, there is that story again of another engine being sourced from Germany in order to qualify.....300 bhp?
 
Hi AMICALEMANS
you sound like you have a fansinating job!
I would love to have the time to do history research

When you have finished your piece for the press room would you consider letting the Z Club have a copy for it's archive - it would even be nice to do a Le Mans article for our Club Magazine.

If you are interested please PM me your home address so I can send you some copies of our club magazine
 
Sorry but :
- it is not my job to write some historical research, its just an hobby
- I read the story about the Schuller 300 HP engine... on the web, but i dont know if it is true ! i will ask Claude Buchet for that.
 
Pouvez-vous éxchangé l'information trouvé ailleur avec les fanas trouvé ici ? Aussi, ici, vous pouvez partiallement verifié l'info 'entendu' ailleur !
 
AMICALEMANS said:
For Suzy : the release will be in june during 24 hours of Le Mans BUT my quest is not only for 240z... Looking for everything about japanese cars at Le Mans !
For Sean Dézart : bien évideMANS
Click to expand...


thanks to everybody
 
SeanDezart said:
You see Count, there is that story again of another engine being sourced from Germany in order to qualify.....300 bhp?
Click to expand...

Yes - but this is not surprising really is it?

We know what engine spec the car was using when it crashed ( and therefore also what it qualified / final practiced with ); the 'Safari' / FIA head casting and Works triple side-draught injection with the Jetronic 'computer'. Such a set-up would have absolutely no problem producing that nice round "300ch" peak power figure - if not more.

Your friend assumed that the quoted "300ch" figure must have indicated an LY crossflow engine ( and committed this to writing without checking his facts ) - but we know that the car was not fitted with an LY when it crashed.

This story of mechanics working all night to fit an engine that Schuller went back to Germany to collect ( a quite reasonable story ) does not seem to take into account a couple of important points. First point is that if an LY had been used in the car at some time ( it would have to have been before the '76 crash ) then some considerable changes to the car would have been necessary: Think of transmission ( LY demanded different bellhousing ), wiring & plumbing ( esp if it was an injected LY ) and exhaust system for starters. That's some job, and it presumes that all parts were to hand.

If on the other hand the engine that was replaced was a 'normal' SOHC layout, then the work would be less. However, if it was not an injected engine, then the amount of work necessary to install the engine that we know was fitted to the car when it crashed would be pretty unlikely to be accomplished in time.

Of the two cars that Nissan brought to South Africa for the Springbok Series, we know that one of them was fitted with an LY ( driven by the Japanese drivers, and reportedly taken back to Japan again ) and the other was a 'normal' SOHC - but almost certainly with the 'Safari' / FIA head casting and injection. It is this car that is presumed to be the 75/76 Le Mans car - therefore the original engine spec was fairly special. Did Schuller return to Germany to collect the original engine that the car was fitted with, or did he go to collect the original engine from an ex-Works rally car ( '6466'? ) that he had custody of? We know that Schuller had '6466', and that '6466' was at one time running the Nissan ECGI race injection setup. Plenty of possibilities there, but not very many of them point to an 'LY' engine. We can't rule out the car being fitted with one at some point, but without specific evidence to prove it I think it is dangerous to assume anything........
 
i saw (so stupid i dont remember where) a picture of the springbok series.
i saw a white car driven by japanese. it was a Gr5 car with a big rear wing.
i saw a 1/42 model of the second car : it was a red car Gr4 : This car became the 75/76 Le Mans car....
 
AMICALEMANS said:
i saw (so stupid i dont remember where) a picture of the springbok series.
i saw a white car driven by japanese. it was a Gr5 car with a big rear wing.
i saw a 1/42 model of the second car : it was a red car Gr4 : This car became the 75/76 Le Mans car....
Click to expand...

No,
The no.15 car in the '73 Kyalami 9hrs ( driven by Kenji Tohira and Kunimitsu Takahashi, and entered in Gr.5 because of its injected Crossflow 'LY' engine ) was predominantly red, but with white 'accents' ( front bumper, and along the lower parts of the sides ).

The no.16 car in the same race ( Chatz/Mortimer, and entered in Gr.4 ) was also red, but without the white accenting. Both cars had the characteristic Castrol sponsor striping at the rear, and both had the same size rear wings ( the three piece Works/Sports Option JAF/FIA homologated design ).

The white accenting on the '75 Le Mans car was probably added as an aide to make the car more visible whilst on the track - especially during the night.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top