Competition 260Zs

SeanDezart said:
Oh god, not another Frenchie living in the past ! Always Webers, always a 2.8 that they think, directly transplanted from a ZX will pull 300 bhp !

Even my road car will take this idea and leave it in the stone age !
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Sean,
I don't get it...... 'Living in the past' is exactly what its all about, isn't it????

Surely the rules and regulations of an event such as the TdeF dictate the spec that the car can / should be built to? This event - and the other events you have mentioned - are Historic / Classic race events with a certain theme or philosophy behind them. If you are taking the mickey out of people for building the cars to a somewhat cliched ( in your view ) spec then I'd have to ask you what exactly you think the whole point of such events actually is........?

Personally, I'd like to see classic races and rallies run to a stricter code of true 'Historic' specs. Probably the only truly justified modernisations ought to be safety-related. If you don't 'stop the clock' - so to speak - at some point in time in the car's history, then you ultimately end up with something that just looks a bit like a Z and not much else. In which case what's the point?
 
No Count, it's not about people building to the specs allowed (I agree that rules should be exploited, that's racing - tell BAR !) but more that over here, I see cars being prepared to specs that were done in the UK over 20 years ago and more ! I think it's a shame that knowledge gained with these cars ever since Japn and USA racing is not being exploited and being charged serious money to customers who don't know better !

I reckon also that the rules should be tighter but maybe the organisers are afraid of a reduced 'plateau' of varied cars !
 
This interesting topic is going on and on, as much as I hate to be a pedant but as there is a lot of very acurate information being stated I thought I would inform you that to keep the record straight, Sean as you should well know the Tour De France is for bicycles so any car you can get into the event will be bound to win! I think you must be refering to the Tour Auto which is the classic re run of what used to be known as the Tour De France Automobile which had been run from 1899 up to 1986, it was then run as an historic event from 1992 and in 1998 it was renamed the Tour Auto under presssure from the Tour De France Cycle company. Vive La France!
Adrian
 
Adrian,

I'm always happy to learn, and if I should know, I didn't ! Thanks for the history, over here, everyone still refers to it as the Tour de France although it is advertised as Tour Auto (a bit drier and more commercial sounding don't you think ?) !

A by the way, the Tour de France (bicycles) will pass our house in July (stage from La Chataigneraie, the 4th July) !

Still doesn't help me with photos of 260Zs in competition, I realise that there were less cars but were there less photographers too ?
 
 
Thanks Guus - you've way too much free time there friend to surf as you do (I'm jealous !).

Now, does everyone see why this has to be done well ! It's not just a case of slotting in a 2.8 and adding some ooh so bloody good Webers and thinking that ones' Z is going to get anywhere near the competition !

A car in this race, like the Le Mans Classic has to be VERY good all round, with a great partnership in the car with some organised back-up and the car has to look right, no hand-painted finishes, 'cos it's events like these that put the Z back on the map !

There's no point preparing a car just so everone can say, "you see, Zs aren't that good - better buy Porsche !"
A well sorted Z, well-driven can finish (and that will be a triumph against some of this exotica) wel-placed and that's what we want - a valiant effort, not just a "look, we participated and finished 348th out of 350 cars !" Look at some of the Monte Carlo Historic Zs to see what I mean !
 
My dear Sean,

You’ve got it totally wrong of what you say about the historic MC. That rally is all about regularity!!!! You will start at a certain time and you have to try to finish at a certain time. It has almost nothing to do with speed, like the rallies Hugh or Dominic are driving in the UK.
It is not the car that wins but the navigator or co-pilot. This year winner is a Lancia Fulvia 1600 HF followed by a Plymouth Barracuda S and a Mercédès-Benz 300 SE, can you imaging??? So please stop making a fool from you self and respect ALL participants in carsport……
 
Did I imply that it was speed that counted ? Well-driven Guusje ! Sorry, I'd just come off the F1 thread and was still speed related - well done your points !

But what I said still counts in most respects - the state of Zs driven in the Monte Carlo Historic is lamentable - I want to see Zs well presented !

I respect ALL participants of motorsport but not all of their car preparation !
 
SeanDezart said:
Now, does everyone see why this has to be done well ! It's not just a case of slotting in a 2.8 and adding some ooh so bloody good Webers and thinking that ones' Z is going to get anywhere near the competition !
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Sean,
Sorry to be Devil's advocaat once again - but I still don't understand what you are trying to suggest here :confused:

An event like the TdeF retrospective ( "Tour Auto" ) has rules and regulations that you will need to comply with. If you are going to enter an RS30 / RLS30 '260Z' into the event then I presume that the regulations will force you to run to the FIA homologated spec for the car rather than a state-of-the-art modern interpretation of it.....

Take that Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona Competizione in Guus' linked video for example. The spec on that car will be as near as dammit to the original Gr.4 homologation - except perhaps for the safety equipment. Maybe they are using a few updated parts in the engine and transmission, but they won't be that far away from the original spec.

Apply the same rules to a '260Z' and you'll be running a bored-up L26, 44PHH Mikunis ( 50PHH if you need them ), transistor ignition, all the usual selection of cams, valves and manifolds etc etc. You will also be restricted to a period-related transmission ( Direct-top or Overdrive ) and a choice of R180, R190 / R192 or R200 diffs. Brakes will also be restricted -I think you'll be stuck with big heavy Sumitomo MK63 4-pots, although you could use these on the rear as well.

Do you see what I'm getting at? You can't build something that will eat the Porsches straight out of the box because you can't use the parts that will beat them. Not legally, anyway. You are stuck with most of the parts that the original cars used.

I don't know the full rules of the Tour Auto, so I might not be fully up to speed with what is and what isn't allowed - but I'm willing to bet that a car built to comply with the original Gr.4 homologation will NOT be as competitive as you are hoping.

As I say, sorry to sound negative - but the stark reality is that you will have to build the best car you can ( which is difficult enough ) and still comply with the rules which dictate the spec.
 
Dear Count,

Thankyou for illustrating what I mean !

No 5 (sounds like Smersh !) reported that someone (in France) was doing up a 240 for Le Mans classic and dropping a 2.8 litre engine plus triple Webers ! Does that sound like FIA compliance to you ?

They all (my fellow FRoggies) think that performance is automatically obtained by doing this and seem to be of the opinion that the car will pass scrutineering ! Note that I've already witnessed a MC Historic 240Z with an L26 engine and Webers - you'd think that this was not allowed, no ?

I know what it will take to build a Z capable of being in the top 10 of the Tour Auto - all the right PERIOD bits, a serious body shell preperation and 50k !

What I'm concerned about on this side of the channel (and specifically in France) is the poor level of car preparation for all types of motorsport/circuit amusement as well and the corresponding poor image people have of Zs over here ! This, I hasten to add is in no way connected to me importing Zs - I'll always find buyers ! No, this is a discussion on a higher plane, theoretical and I hope now that all of you can see where I'm getting at !
If not, here we go - the majority of cars, prepared for public competitive events here in France is....dismal ! Both in engineering and in presentation !

Symon and I and Fred and Eric and Benoit aim to alter this by running cars (strictly conforming) in different categories ! I have also stated that should anyone want to pursue the idea of running at Le Mans Classic, I can provide a team of mechanics, probably some sponsoring and certainly all the logistics help required ! No takers yet !

None of this car racing is going to happen tomorrow, but one must start with an idea and good intentions - no ?
Count, I don't take your post as negative - I'm a + guy and any info is useful !
 
Sean, I never talked about a Le Mans Classic.......Tour Auto it was!! On FIVA regulations you have to be in period as they say. And period means plus 7 years!
FIA could have different regulations but the man to ask is Hugh. Rules in the UK are the same for France

SeanDezart said:
Dear Count,

Thankyou for illustrating what I mean !

No 5 (sounds like Smersh !) reported that someone (in France) was doing up a 240 for Le Mans classic and dropping a 2.8 litre engine plus triple Webers ! Does that sound like FIA compliance to you ?
They all (my fellow FRoggies) think that performance is automatically obtained by doing this and seem to be of the opinion that the car will pass scrutineering ! Note that I've already witnessed a MC Historic 240Z with an L26 engine and Webers - you'd think that this was not allowed, no ?
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MSA "Blue Book" Rules apply to Historic Rallying in the UK. These vary between Historic Road Rallying and Historic Stage Rallying.

Basically you are allowed to do anything that was done for rallying "in period" which for Post Historic (MSA Historic Category 2) 240 or 260Z's means up to the end of 1974.

However, you do have to be able to prove it, so documentary evidence is a good idea.

The eligibility scrutineers are pretty sensible about allowing similar parts to be used, rather than the exact, unobtainable or super expensive, factory item.

Modern rules apply for seats, belts, extinguishers and roll cages, although the roll cage is not allowed to be mounted to brace the suspension mounts.

I believe that this is quite different from FIA Rules and FIVA is more restrictive again.

We are really lucky in the UK in the way that the HRCR runs the British Historic Championship. It enables us to have a huge amount of fun without costs being excessive.

Hugh
 
Thanks Guus/Hugh,

Guus, you quoted ZPassion non ? Word has it he's doing a car for the Le Mans Classic but that's maybe another preparer over here (neither of them talk to the other !) !

Sean
 
SeanDezart said:
Dear Count, Thankyou for illustrating what I mean !

No 5 (sounds like Smersh !) reported that someone (in France) was doing up a 240 for Le Mans classic and dropping a 2.8 litre engine plus triple Webers ! Does that sound like FIA compliance to you ?

They all (my fellow FRoggies) think that performance is automatically obtained by doing this and seem to be of the opinion that the car will pass scrutineering ! Note that I've already witnessed a MC Historic 240Z with an L26 engine and Webers - you'd think that this was not allowed, no ?

I know what it will take to build a Z capable of being in the top 10 of the Tour Auto - all the right PERIOD bits, a serious body shell preperation and 50k !
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Albrecht wheels in for a bit more healthy cynicism.....

Sean, I still can't get my head around what you are actually aiming at spec-wise. You are taking the mickey out of the L28-and-Webers cliche but what is the alternative? If you follow the regs ( especially the true FIA spec ) you end up with pretty much the same thing - or certainly about the same performance-wise.

If those competitors on the MC Historic got their Webered-L26s past the scrutes, then it just goes to show that the scrutes are kind of following the spirit of the law if not the letter. The Webers are - after all - still just side-draught carbs ( true to the homologated spec ) even if they are not Mikunis. As Hugh has implied, the battle in his particular series is proving that what they want to use is legal - and then getting that past the scrutes ( and other competitors! ). I would guess that the same-ish situation applies in almost all events / classes.

You say you think 50K plus a well-prepped body and all the right 'period' parts will get into the top 10 on the Tour Auto? Dream on. I think you'd be way outside the top 10 with a truly 'period' spec car. You don't even say what class you would enter - so surely you can't mean top 10 overall ( impossible! ).

I guess there's always a chance that a really good driver - driving balls-out - would make enough difference to negate some of the advantages of other competitors' cars, but such driving can tend to end in tears.

You know[i/] how much I love the first-gen Z cars, but you can't convince me that you can rewrite history whilst staying truly 'period correct' and in-homologation. Not unless you have an unlimited budget and can buy the truly exotic rare parts you need.

The first-gen Z was better suited to endurance events like the Safari than fast tarmac road events. The opposition had a natural advantage in-period ( in my opinion ).

You are not talking about building true circuit cars ( are you? ) so I won't even go there......

Cynic clocking off. :)
 
Count, there is a world of difference between slotting in a 280ZX engine and whacking on a set of triples AND a professionally prepared 2.8 block with ALL the parts engineered to work in harmony !
What I see over here is the state of engine preparation seen in the UK back in the early '80s (not even Sam. spec and I know what you feel about them !).

So, what I'm saying (and I hope you can get around this) is don't be disappointed (after hearing that we will see Zs in these prestigeous events) as they are being prepared by the back-street boys, their level of finish is poor and their level of engineering matches it !

And I repeat, it is a shame to see cars like this 'representing' the marque !

Maybe 50k isn't enough but it's a lot for 'meagre enthusiasts' like me and Symon and I reckon his driving will compensate for some ! I know how much some are paying for E.African safari cars and I agree, that the Z was better suited to edurance rallys than tarmac events - I still like the fact that the Z has won on circuits whereas the competition that won against the Z in rallys hasn't done much else (Alpines/Escorts) !

Are we digressing ? Burnsie will toast 'mes couilles' at this rate !

So, any photos of period competition 260Zs ?

And how is your little '9' project coming along ?
 
Sean, I have read all the above with great interest and very little technical knowledge, in comparrison to you & The Count. However I think I see what you're getting at. My recollection of French "rally cars" is that they can at best be refered to as Grass Track cars over here as far as bodywork is concerned. However they did seem very fast when driven with typical French enthusiasm (?). whether or not the mechanical bits compare with the condition of the body I can't say.
 
Derek, I’ve got a lot of French drivers and co–drivers in my Victory list. They are doing there best, have fun (!) and above all show the world (france) what a Datsun is…….
 
I haven't said anything different. My impression was that Sean was commenting on the turnout of the cars and I was agreeing with him.
 
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