Advice about Gt/Gts track racing

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

I am interesting about advice about someone who run on the Gt/GTS VHC trophy.

Because i plan to begin a project i search about what can be really done with a 240Z and what is approve.

i find the Z was approve in Groupe 3 in 1971, but in groupe 3 the car must be very stock....

Thank you

Benoît

 

[SeanDezart]

Any group 4 information (especially on the 2 seater 260) would be appreciated too !

These are serious projects to boost the image of our Zs in Europe and really piss off the porkers and alpines that we see everywhere !

 

[ben240z]

Mine was running in the group 5 european sports car championship(sometimes reffered to as group 4 ) in holland in 1974/5/6. I have the homologation papers for the car as it was run with all the mods approved. If you are not going to run stock then some of the info I have might be of use. cheers ben

 

[Albrecht]

Because i plan to begin a project i search about what can be really done with a 240Z and what is approve.

Any group 4 information (especially on the 2 seater 260) would be appreciated too !

You ought to start by contacting the FIA and getting copies of the homologation papers for the model(s) you are investigating:

"Fairlady Z" ( S30 ) = FIA homologation no. 3022 (Groups 3 & 4 )

"240Z" ( HS30 / HLS30 ) FIA homologation no. 3023
( Groups 3 & 4 ) - covers all the updates for the RS30 / RLS30 and beyond too.

However, what they ran in period is one thing and what you will be allowed to run in your chosen class/ series may be another altogether. I'd say that the first thing you need to look at are the regulations of your chosen class / series.......

These are serious projects to boost the image of our Zs in Europe and really piss off the porkers and alpines that we see everywhere !

I hope this won't sound too harsh, but you have no chance Sean. Mr Average Porker or Alpine owner will spend more on his his engine budget than you or most other Z owners are prepared to pay on their entire car build budget.

Its just a fact of life, and its part of the *pay-off* that goes with people continually talking-down the value of 'our' cars. Sad, but true.

Want an example? I'll sell you a nice transmission for your race car project; a genuine dog-leg shift pattern direct-drive 5-speed 'Option 1' F5C71-B.

Just £2,000 to you. Think its too expensive or you don't need it? Thought so.

 

[SeanDezart]

My dear count,

I am aware of the price of a serious Z rally car ! I'm aware via Dave of the costs of racing and the parts and the price of engines (mine is just a road engine but...phew).

Maybe we won't win but to begin to finish in the top 10 or 15 and harry the others on a more limited budget will piss 'em off ! Hopefully, they will respect us more from it too !
I agree that our cars are undervalued, what I want to do over here is to change that !
Yes, Benoit and I are looking at the homologation papers, thanks - our idea is to gain some time and advice by asking everyone now if that can help us. I still like to think we're all rowing in the same direction....naive ?

As stated in the other (260 comp) thread, any and all advice/photos/parts sourcing would be enormously appreciated !

Last price I was working to on a dog leg box was 1500 quid - exchange rates ?

Don't underestimate me - I'm a crusader like you

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

Mine was running in the group 5 european sports car championship(sometimes reffered to as group 4 ) in holland in 1974/5/6. I have the homologation papers for the car as it was run with all the mods approved.

When your car was run originaly by janspeed what was the configuration?

2.4L + rotomaster turbo and a single S.U 2 "? or more modified engine?

what are you know about this period when Janspeed run the dutch championships?

Thanks

Benoît

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

Homologuation papers

I have done the request and waiting the answer for the 240Z homologuation 3023

And ask about the 260Z homologuation because i didn't see the model in the homologate cars

nevertheles the 260z run the le MANS 24H in 1975....

The regulations are very complicate and not very clear....
I understand that the GT and T class was for groupe 3 and groupe 1 T cars

GTS and TC class was for Groupe 4 / 5 or Groupe 2 TC cars

But how can i do a groupe 4 or 5 car if the car was homologuate in groupe 3?

Or probably there are some extension for the modification....

thanks

Benoit

 

[SeanDezart]

And isn't grp 3 a grp 1 now (HSCC racers - basically standard, blueprinted engine etc) ?

It aint easy !

 

[Albrecht]

I have done the request and waiting the answer for the 240Z homologuation 3023
And ask about the 260Z homologuation because i didn't see the model in the homologate cars.

But how can i do a groupe 4 or 5 car if the car was homologuate in groupe 3?

Or probably there are some extension for the modification....

When you get the papers in your hands, you will see that all of the Group 4 homologations used in European competition are listed as additions to the original homologation. That's the way it works. The RS30 / RLS30 are in there too. When you see the papers, all will be clearer.

...nevertheles the 260z run the le MANS 24H in 1975....

Not so. Where did you get this information? Did you read it in a book? I think you probably did.

The car that ran at the Le Mans 24hrs in 1975 and 1976 was NOT a "260Z".

 

[SeanDezart]

"The car that ran at the Le Mans 24hrs in 1975 and 1976 was NOT a "260Z"."
Prove it please !
A lot of people believe the second car was a 260 made out as a 240 !
Please expire another myth for us !

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

Yes I was not at Le MANS in 1975 to see by myself (i was born in 1975.... ), so i read that in a book!

In the book datsun Z by brian long, they say that the ex works rally cars 260z (TSK33 SU 6466) althought listed as a 2393cc was entered in GTS class.
so it not very clear....
a 260z body with a 2.4L engine perhaps? or an error in the book tey are not right all the time...

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

LE Mans

the picture of the car in my book show a 240Z rear panel (1975)

But in 1976 the car entered by sianautos 2001 and running in GT class was a 2565CC and the car crash in 7st hour after an accident and the driver dead...

always according to the book, now the only persons abble to tell the true were probably the teams that run the car in 1975 1976....

 

[Albrecht]

Benoit,

Brian Long didn't get this right in his books. He did not have all the information to hand. He was basing his explanation on other people's mistakes I'm afraid.

But it is a little more understandable if you try to think of the the whole thing as a kind of conjuring trick in the first place:

Look at the pictures of the car in 1975 from the books. It is wearing the Japanese 'Carnet' registration number of a Works rally car ( TKS 33 SU 6466 ). These numbers were not transferable, and yet this Carnet number was first seen on a left-hand-drive Works '260Z' ( RLS30 ) rally car - on events including the 1974 TAP Rallye and 1974 RAC Rally.

Look at the Le Mans car. It is RHD and quite obviously an earlier bodyshell with all the Japanese 'Works' circuit-race Group 4 body parts on it - even the special super-wide Works 'Kobe Seiko' / 'Gotti' 4-spoke mag wheels never seen on any rally cars. This car was originally brought to South Africa by Nissan Japan to race in the Springbok Series ( they actually brought two cars, and took one back to Japan ), but when the Springbok Series was cancelled after just a couple of events the car had no races left to run in.

It eventually found its way to France - competing in some local events - and eventually into the 1975 Le Mans 24hrs. Why was it wearing the 'Carnet' number of a genuine Works rally car ( and therefore taking its full identity and FIA logbook )? The answer is simply to allow it to race under the rules of the ACO at Le Mans. Who pulled all these things together? None other than Mr Hans Schuller.

The 1975 & 1976 Le Mans 24hrs Z was an ex-Works Japanese circuit race car running under a false identity. Trust me on that.

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

You probably be right....

You know better the history than me about competition cars..
i notice also that on an other picture (Chris Scalter working on the car TKS 33 6466) the car have a 260Z rear panel....

but the sionautos 2001 car was a 2565CC engine on a 260Z in GT class or is it false also...

 

[SeanDezart]

So, the 1975 260Z was in fact a 240Z shell ?

What about a 'sister' car owned my Mr Bourguoin at Poitiers (ex Datsun garage) that he purports to be a mule/replacement car at Le Mans ?

 

[Albrecht]

...i notice also that on an other picture (Chris Scalter working on the car TKS 33 6466) the car have a 260Z rear panel....

Benoit, FORGET the rally car. The original 'TKS 33 SU 6466' and the Le Mans cars are NOT the same car. The Le Mans car had the rear number plate from '6466' attached to it, but don't for one minute entertain the idea that they were the SAME car. Get it out of your head.

... but the sionautos 2001 car was a 2565CC engine on a 260Z in GT class or is it false also...

They had one year between the two events to do whatever they wanted. They made big mods to the engine for 1976 ( including a special on-board endurance spec engine oil replenishment system ) so there was plenty of opportunity to increase the engine size.....

But anyway this presumes that the capacity in 1975 was stated correctly in the first place. I have no idea what Schuller told the ACO about the engine, but if you take into account that the car was effectively running on a false identity then anything is possible.

You must not discount the fact that the car was originally a Japanese Works-built circuit race car. With the Option crank and the maximum allowed bore size it would not have been running standard cc in Japan, let alone SA and then France.........

 

[bpaccaudjanspeedZ]

OK,OK....

My idea was to run A GT class 240Z in groupe 3, so if i am right i am in the 2000 to 2500 class and can overbore from 2393Cc to 2500.

The 2500 fuel injected engine used in rally is a 2498CC by increasing the bore to 84.8mm.

Or must i do only overbore to 0.6mm like the regulation say for the groupe 3?

The regulation say also, the exhaust must be original, carburetor too, brakes too ouchh....i think we need brakes.

 

[Albrecht]

So, the 1975 260Z was in fact a 240Z shell ?

This is like talking to the Flat Earth Society all over again

Get "260Z" out of your head will you. What do you mean a "240Z shell"? It was a COMPLETE Japanese Works-built circuit race car. You need to understand the Japanese circuit race cars in order to recognise it, but unfortunately almost nobody seems to look to Japan for their information about a Japanese car. How crazy is that?

What about a 'sister' car owned my Mr Bourguoin at Poitiers (ex Datsun garage) that he purports to be a mule/replacement car at Le Mans ?

Monsieur Bourgoin's car ( the silver LHD one with the bubble arches - Steve Lack posted a photo of it in the Gallery here - yes? ) is based on a standard road car that originally belonged to Andre Haller. All the 'competition' mods on that car were later additions / mods. If it ever went to Le Mans in '75 and '76 it was most likely parked up in the car park. It was never originally a race car and it never competed or practiced at Le Mans. It was one of Andre Haller's road cars, that's all.

M. Bourgoin got a little 'economical with the truth' when talking to 'Old Timer' magazine I remember. You might like to believe that he is carrying on a tradition of feigned identity connected to the Le Mans car. Tee hee.

Class Bourgoin's car alongside that 'Genuine Works Monte Carlo Rally Z' owned by those daft Italian Nissan dealers. Nothing of the sort.

Here's a little clue to push things along a little bit. Who was it that wrote this to his mistress: "I shouldn't wish your life began the day we met"?:

 

[SeanDezart]

Indeed M Bourgoin suddenly had other things to do when I mentioned (after inspection) that his car was 'only' a road car ! The mods are period, yes but easily 'dépassed' now for circuit and even fast road use ! I think I bruised his ego, but then you know how tactful I can be ! Ok, no more 260s- with the new pope perhaps the earth is flat ;-)

Samuel Johnson ? I'd 'av said Oscar Wilde, but like him I'd be stabbing in the dark !

You are quite correct to point out the best (only ?) source for the truth on Japanese cars is from Japan ! Why are we (nearly) all crawling about trying to rub two sticks togther when there's someone not far away with a brand new zippo ? You are the best source I have for enlightenement, is there another , Certainly the Japanese are'nt too bothered about diffusing the truth !

What about a book, financially helped if necessary by us to sell in English (large Z and press market) called Z Truths ! Even the title is a joke Mr S-30 !

 

[Nigel Brook]

Want an example? I'll sell you a nice transmission for your race car project; a genuine dog-leg shift pattern direct-drive 5-speed 'Option 1' F5C71-B.

Just £2,000 to you. Think its too expensive or you don't need it? Thought so.

I take it this box is not new or rebuilt ?