Is the Nissan Z poised to become the next 911?

[SeanDezart]

I'm talking about relative to the comparable Nissans in Japan. Zs, Skylines, and Laurels all up north of £50k, Celicas, Corollas, Carinas, all still in the £20-30k range for similar quality vehicles.

There's so few TAs and RAs in the UK now that who knows what the market looks like. Prices are more governed by what it costs to get one from Japan - the best ones here are the RA25s, TA27s, and RA28s that are JDM. Most UK cars turned to iron oxide decades ago!

But we're not talking about Japan, or Australia or even the USA - we're 'here' which is relative too I guess since you're 'over there' and I'm over here and never the twain shall meet, LHD,vs RHD values and all that nonsense.....

But the UK cars that didn't oyxdise are now as rare perhaps as original UK market S30s.....

you've said its in everyones interest(your post is above). I said 'no its not', as its not in my interest nore is it a goal.

I sit in the camp as a fan only.

Others sit in the camp to make money only.

Some sit in both.

Ah, we're all indivuals and different....

Luckily there are some willing to produce and sell parts...like brake kits, spindle pins, steering racks and they have my vote and support.

 

[richiep]

But we're not talking about Japan, or Australia or even the USA - we're 'here' which is relative too I guess since you're 'over there' and I'm over here and never the twain shall meet, LHD,vs RHD values and all that nonsense.....

But the UK cars that didn't oyxdise are now as rare perhaps as original UK market S30s.....

Far rarer. But they haven't been built up in the way Zs have for years now. So that rarity isn't translating to spiralling values as they haven't had the same attention overall.

 

[SeanDezart]

You said that high prices "promote exclusivity and rarity", as though rising prices somehow (I've no idea how) have an effect on rarity. There are cars and parts that I have been chasing for decades, but rising prices have not made them rarer. Their rarity is finite. And the concept of 'exclusivity' requires that some have access, and some don't. That's always been the case. The cost of acquisition went up, that's all.

We agree upon exclusivity and the why,how.

Rare is defined simply as uncommon. If a part or car is very expensive it is because it is rare AND desirable (supply and demand). If we follow someone elses' logic, the cars won't come out of the closet, those left available become more rare :

I just think it is sad that inaccessibility creeps in to these things. Fewer people get to experience them, and more will tend to disappear - collectors and wealthier owners don't often tend to really share their ownership so to speak.
I'm in a position where I can grab my coveted Hakosuka, it will be a painful experience for the pocket!

How many Kaosukas were produced compared to early S30s ?

+/- 500,000 S30s were built - I'm not sure if that includes JDM S31s or not (?) and they are becomming more rare irrespective of prices.

Nope. 'Newbie' is not age group-defined.

We are agreed then but not all newbies want to customise their Z-sleds - I know plenty rebuilding their cars into 'full-stock' which is a blessing as they're in the minority.....perhaps that is end-value-driven, perhaps just the pleasure or challenge to get it to factory state.

Far rarer. But they haven't been built up in the way Zs have for years now. So that rarity isn't translating to spiralling values as they haven't had the same attention overall.

Perhaps because they disn't have a proactive club as we have had since 45yrs !

I've always kept an eye of other Japanese cars' values of the same era and pre-XX40 cars have risen in value over the past 10yrs to the point where one can choose an S30 or a TA/RA with the same money in your pocket !

 

[Albrecht]

Nissan have been busying themselves coming up with a new Z35 generation, making big noises about referencing the bloodline (especially noticeable with regard to the headlamps, which reference a model never sold outside Japan) and meanwhile the 'Z Scene' (whatever we think that is...) is busy convincing itself that it is going to be called the '400Z', which is entirely their own imaginary term. *This* is the kind of USA-centric nonsense that I'm talking about, that we have always seen, and it is the '240Z', '260Z', '280Z' thing all over again.

There simply IS no way to stop it. This Hagerty article proves it.

 

[Kest]

I'd like to chime in a little as an aforementioned "newbie" somewhat.
I'm 36 now which is old enough to have adult toys now but haven't quite got there yet, sort of. I grew up around Zs, with the old man's 280zx taking up most of my attention, he never paid over 1k for any of his cars, now his gone, I'd not let his car go for less than 20k rightly or wrongly. I wish he could have seen how it appreciated in both value and desire because the last 30 years everyone looked down their noses at the 280zx or so it seemed.
As a lad, maybe it was the prevalence of being around the cars, but I didn't care too much for them, but now I feel they are out of my price range for 'a little fun', it just so happened I inherited them, so hey, lucky me?
Something like the 350z though. I watched it's production all the way from teased concept art all the way upto release, eagerly. Again I guess it was because the z club was such a big influence to me as a child that I did this, so maybe I can't speak as an outsider. But soon enough I'll be in the market for a fun cheapish Z, so the 350 is where I'll start for fun. This is the attainable child dream car soon to be
The 260 is a project which means much more to me than money - if anything the inherent monetary worth bothers me as i feel it guides my hand in my choice of repair, I can't just patch a rust hole on a 20k car I feel, and at this point it makes it less fun and more hard work.
I'm lucky enough, I feel to own a rhd s30 (ignoring that its actually GRS30), because I doubt I'd buy one at their current market prices just for funsies.

All my own opinions obviously, but one from the younger side of the fence. I still wish minis were ten a penny like when I first started driving. Cars should be fun.

 

[SeanDezart]

I'd like to chime in a little as an aforementioned "newbie" somewhat.
I'm 36 now which is old enough to have adult toys Cars should be fun.

Good post and chime in anytime - this is a PUBLIC forum.

Nissan have been busying themselves coming up with a new Z35 generation, making big noises about referencing the bloodline (especially noticeable with regard to the headlamps, which reference a model never sold outside Japan) and meanwhile the 'Z Scene' (whatever we think that is...) is busy convincing itself that it is going to be called the '400Z', which is entirely their own imaginary term. *This* is the kind of USA-centric nonsense that I'm talking about, that we have always seen, and it is the '240Z', '260Z', '280Z' thing all over again.

This is merely another journalist leaping on the wagon and trying to teach us something new, convince us of something that we've all known for +30yrs...: that is that 240Zs pull the strings - they pull the other models' values up....!

He could be of any nationality.

 

[Albrecht]

This is merely another journalist leaping on the wagon and trying to teach us something new, convince us of something that we've all known for +30yrs...: that is that 240Zs pull the strings - they pull the other models' values up....!

He could be of any nationality.

I don't see anything in the Hagerty article that even tips its hat towards the fact that there are different markets around the world for these cars, and that the models sold in the North American market - certainly as far as the S30-series Z is concerned - were de-contented, softened up and dumbed down in comparison with those for other markets, and that - arguably - Japan's own home market got the most desirable models.

Pitching the Z against Porsche(s), you have to show the whole story. I don't know what the Hagerty article is doing in that respect. It doesn't even go there. Take the 911 for the period when Hagerty's '240Z' and '260Z' were being sold as new cars; There was a whole *range* of 911 models (including some REALLY hot ones) and yet in comparison North America only ever really saw *one* model choice for the HLS30U and RLS30U (unless you count Automatic trans as a model choice) and half the time buyers were not even able to order specific colours. Dealers were loading the cars with tacky add-ons to inflate the sales prices. There's no real comparison. So how can the Z ever be "the next 911" in any practical sense? You'd have to pitch it like-for-like against the softest USA-specific variant of the contemporary 911 species.

This is Hagerty - and more generally, the USA - talking to itself again.

 

[SeanDezart]

I don't see anything in the Hagerty article that even tips its hat towards the fact that there are different markets around the world for these cars, and that the models sold in the North American market - certainly as far as the S30-series Z is concerned - were de-contented, softened up and dumbed down in comparison with those for other markets, and that - arguably - Japan's own home market got the most desirable models.

Pitching the Z against Porsche(s), you have to show the whole story. I don't know what the Hagerty article is doing in that respect. It doesn't even go there. Take the 911 for the period when Hagerty's '240Z' and '260Z' were being sold as new cars; There was a whole *range* of 911 models (including some REALLY hot ones) and yet in comparison North America only ever really saw *one* model choice for the HLS30U and RLS30U (unless you count Automatic trans as a model choice) and half the time buyers were not even able to order specific colours. Dealers were loading the cars with tacky add-ons to inflate the sales prices. There's no real comparison. So how can the Z ever be "the next 911" in any practical sense? You'd have to pitch it like-for-like against the softest USA-specific variant of the contemporary 911 species.

This is Hagerty - and more generally, the USA - talking to itself again.

Goalpost moving again....in one breath you speak of the JDM getting the most desirable models (save that one for another day ) and then the dumbed-down US market cars...and you miss Hagertys' whole point, which I spelt out to you just previously :

240Zs pull the strings - they pull the other models' values up....!

and he implies that 911s do the same for Porsches : THERE'S the comparison between the two models...didn't realise it was that complicated to see.

 

[vipergts]

Supply abs demand. It’s the only thing that determines price.
Aren’t there literally millions of these cars on the planet?

 

[SeanDezart]

Supply abs demand. It’s the only thing that determines price.
Aren’t there literally millions of these cars on the planet?

True, rare or not !

Unfortunately there were never too many export market RHDs and Japan is holding onto hers. And I keep telling 'you' that 'you' keep underestimating the value of your cars.....

I guesstimate that there were somewhere in the region of 3000 240Zs officially imported into Europe (including the UK) at their time of commercialisation. Add to that another 'approx' 6-7000ish 260Zs of both versions and we have an average of a little over 1000x cars a year.

Again, I would guesstimate that there are fewer than 800 240Zs now which included later, personal and pro imports, chassis swapping and whatnot !
The attrition rate of the 260Zs was even more prolific and I would estimate that there are less than 3000 of them throughout Europe...and the UK).

That makes for approx 3000 cars here which over the surafce and head count of Europe (....and the UK) is not a lot !....I wonder how many are left on the road, registered, in Japan, Alan - please ?

 

[Albrecht]

Goalpost moving again....in one breath you speak of the JDM getting the most desirable models (save that one for another day ) and then the dumbed-down US market cars...

The Hagerty article addresses the north American (or rather, more chauvinistically, the USA market) for the Z, initially pointing to the S30-series models that were sold there and comparing their values to contemporary Porsche models. But whilst the north American market DID get a choice of 911 variants (including prime 911 cuts like the 911R, 911 T/R, 911S and 911 Carrera RS during the 1969 through 1974 period) the USA got the HLS30U, RLS30U and GRLS30U models. USA didn't even get the best 240Zs and 260Zs, let alone the likes of the Fairlady Z432, 432-R, Fairlady 240Z-L and Fairlady 240ZG. No need to "save that for another day". THE WHOLE WORLD got better Zs than the USA did during the first half of the 1970s and - something not addressed by Hagerty - the USA's Zs have been the lowest valued of all for many many years.

If anything we are merely seeing a 'correction' driven by prime examples, even if the hype is getting slightly ahead of itself: A very nice '71 HLS30U ended up not meeting its reserve on BAT tonight. No sale. People were talking about it hitting 60k to 80k USD, but it failed to get very far past 40k. That's way behind what similar condition Australian, UK and (yes...) Japanese market cars have been pulling for years now. There seem to be plenty of cars like that one around, so supply is - in my opinion - still somewhat outstripping demand, "New Z Era" hype or not.

and you miss Hagertys' whole point, which I spelt out to you just previously :

"240Zs pull the strings - they pull the other models' values up....!"

and he implies that 911s do the same for Porsches : THERE'S the comparison between the two models...didn't realise it was that complicated to see.

If that's Hagerty's point, then it's vague and ill thought-out. What does '240Z' mean? What does '911' mean? The terms are stretched past any specific meaning when used in that way. And when Japanese, European, Australian and UK market S30-series Z cars have been fetching higher prices than their contemporary USA market variants, exactly how can Hagerty tell us that USA market 240Zs "pull the strings"?

 

[SeanDezart]

Hagerty article addresses the north American (or rather, more chauvinistically, the USA market) for the Z, initially pointing to the S30-series models that were sold there and comparing their values to contemporary Porsche models. But whilst the north American market DID get a choice of 911 variants (including prime 911 cuts like the 911R, 911 T/R, 911S and 911 Carrera RS during the 1969 through 1974 period) the USA got the HLS30U, RLS30U and GRLS30U models. USA didn't even get the best 240Zs and 260Zs, let alone the likes of the Fairlady Z432, 432-R, Fairlady 240Z-L and Fairlady 240ZG. No need to "save that for another day". THE WHOLE WORLD got better Zs than the USA did during the first half of the 1970s and - something not addressed by Hagerty - the USA's Zs have been the lowest valued of all for many many years.

To a journalist - a 240Z is just that and a 911 likewise......they can't get their heads around specifics and never the spend the necessary time and energy to research their subject - their belief is that vagueness cannot be criticised for being 'wrong' ! Sure Hagerty are addressing their domestic market - why should they speak of S30 prices in Finland...? There are not many English articles and so almost the only voice is coming from where the most were sold - not Nissans' more 'important market which was and remains the JDM but their largest for S30s.
Where are the voices in the UK ?

If anything we are merely seeing a 'correction' driven by prime examples, even if the hype is getting slightly ahead of itself: A very nice '71 HLS30U ended up not meeting its reserve on BAT tonight. No sale. People were talking about it hitting 60k to 80k USD, but it failed to get very far past 40k. That's way behind what similar condition Australian, UK and (yes...) Japanese market cars have been pulling for years now. There seem to be plenty of cars like that one around, so supply is - in my opinion - still somewhat outstripping demand, "New Z Era" hype or not.

Which prime examples - you mean Z432 and Z432-R auctions ?
You refer to an early HLS30U...and in the previous paragraph rip into it as the worst in the world....! Auctions depend upon at least two people desiring an object - perhaps just not the 'right day' so 1x example doesn't make the rule !

If that's Hagerty's point, then it's vague and ill thought-out. What does '240Z' mean? What does '911' mean? The terms are stretched past any specific meaning when used in that way. And when Japanese, European, Australian and UK market S30-series Z cars have been fetching higher prices than their contemporary USA market variants, exactly how can Hagerty (and you) tell us that USA market 240Zs "pull the strings"?

Hagerty haven't looked at world Z prices - it's that simple but in a country (where how many people actually posess a passport ?) so large and where so many S30s were sold, THEY don't need to look further.

 

[Mr Tenno]

Ok - opening this one back up.


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