Engine capacity question

[Charlie Boy]

Well that's exactly my point Charlie , I think the lightweight alloy small block would make a fantastic tool for road/track use .

I love V8’s there’s nothing like the sound of a big block 425! it’s like there’s a small war going on under the hood! I think if you’re not worried about the historical or originality of the car then you can’t beat them for power and sound hummm now I wonder if you can squeeze an Elefant engine into a 260 Ok maybe a small block would suffice.

So when you’re done with the conversion you’ll have to change your user name to.....

Datrolet or Hemidat

 

[vpulsar]

Datrolet or Hemidat

LoL , I don't think so because being old I'd forget what I called myself so I had better stick to vpulsar so I don't get confused , Mind you my GTIROC user name is Odin .

I defo not a purist Charlie, I think their is plenty of those kind of people about, I can't be doing with all that totally standard better than new cr@p, You wont ever catch me trailering a car to any event or for that matter under it with a tooth brush cleaning every nook and cranny .


Rob




Rob

 

[zeeman1972]

Think you may be hard pressed to get a new LSx crate engine and T56 in your car for £7K to be honest, I would reckon you would be closer to £8500 by the time you had sorted out the ancilleries, prop and fuel systems, unless you went the carb route in which case you'd need one hell of a bonnet bulge

If it helps my secondhand (30K miles) pullout LS1/T56 cost just under £4K to my house a couple of years ago. I know the LS2 GTO engines/boxes can be found for between $4500-$5500 pretty easily, costing probably the same in £s after shipping and duty to your door.

 

[vpulsar]

Think you may be hard pressed to get a new LSx crate engine and T56 in your car for £7K to be honest, I would reckon you would be closer to £8500

Cheers I was just guesstimating and hadn't got the final prices, To be honest I hadn't thought much about the carb to bonnet clearance , Tanks for pointing that issue out.

I've found a place in the UK that can supply the engine with fuel injection and an ECU and wiring to run it all, Which would cure any clearance issues but I was hoping to use a holly to simplify the who process, Oh well back to the drawing board. I hate the idea of doing any wiring and I'm terrified of electrics .

The also can supply a smaller 5 speed gearbox instead of the bulkier T56 speed unit, Waiting for a catalog from them at the moment, They supply ultima and people like that.

I just hope I get enough cash from breaking my pulsar to fund all this lot or it might take longer than planned to finish lol.


Rob

 

[zeeman1972]

Cheers I was just guesstimating and hadn't got the final prices, To be honest I hadn't thought much about the carb to bonnet clearance , Tanks for pointing that issue out.

Your welcome, though I didn't mean a carb definitely wouldn't fit! Though I hadn't actually considered doing it on mine I did consider carb clearance and I believe you may be able to squeeze one in on a very shallow manifold with the tiniest of air cleaners, this all felt like it would be severely limiting performance wise. Anyways here's a pic that may give you an idea of clearance. Its the bonnets drop toward the front that would be the issue I feel.

Standard iron small blocks can be fitted in these cars with carbs and standard air cleaners however I have never put both engines side by side to see how much higher the LS is.

Regarding the electrics it's not that much of a challenge to be honest, the standard EFi is pretty self contained with limited external connectivity, you just need some relays to control the fans, etc. More than happy to provide some help with the electrics if you went this way.

Just curious, but why would you want to go with the 5 over the 6 speed?

Are you talking to British American Engines by any chance then? Heard that they are a good set of guys!

Have you had a look at the US www.hybridz.org? if its putting a different engine, especially V8's, into a Z there's stacks of information on there!

Steve

 

[vpulsar]

Just curious, but why would you want to go with the 5 over the 6 speed?

Are you talking to British American Engines by any chance then? Heard that they are a good set of guys!

The reason it was suggested to me to use the 5 speed is that it's a smaller unit and would fit easier, But I can buy a fitting kit for the T56 so that might be the better option, And yes it is BAE that I was looking at in the states, But the injected option is a UK based supplier.

It would be a far cheaper option to fit the Iron block I'm just worried about the weight issue, Do you happen to know the weight difference between the Iron block and the LS engine, Also the difference between the Iron block and the standard 6 pot ?.

Thanks for the offer of help with the wiring, I'll probably take you up on that when the time comes .


Rob



Rob

 

[zeeman1972]

The reason it was suggested to me to use the 5 speed is that it's a smaller unit and would fit easier, But I can buy a fitting kit for the T56 so that might be the better option

Cool, understood! Well I can tell you that the T56 fits straight in with the John's Cars engine mount kit, with the shifter coming up through the original hole. The only adjustment required is a medium 'massaging' of the transmission tunnel on the right-hand side to clear one of the electrical contacts on the gearbox.

And yes it is BAE that I was looking at in the states, But the injected option is a UK based supplier.

I though BAE were UK based with workshops in Kent? Perhaps not the same company I'm thinking of then, the guy in the UK one was Ian Briggs?

It would be a far cheaper option to fit the Iron block I'm just worried about the weight issue, Do you happen to know the weight difference between the Iron block and the LS engine, Also the difference between the Iron block and the standard 6 pot ?.

From memory I think a stock 70's SBC is approximately 80lbs heavier than an L series and LS engine. With respect to the SBC, how its mounted (scarab way, JTR kit, etc) also influences how it effects the set up. If you have a look in the Jags That Run V8 conversion manual (available for the club shop and on the JTR site) there are ways that you can reduce and redistribute this weight, ali heads, relocate battery, etc, etc.

Thanks for the offer of help with the wiring, I'll probably take you up on that when the time comes .

Your welcome!

Steve

 

[vpulsar]

From memory I think a stock 70's SBC is approximately 80lbs heavier than an L series and LS engine. With respect to the SBC, how its mounted (scarab way, JTR kit, etc) also influences how it effects the set up. If you have a look in the Jags That Run V8 conversion manual (available for the club shop and on the JTR site) there are ways that you can reduce and redistribute this weight, ali heads, relocate battery, etc, etc.

Cheers Steve.

The Iron block is also stronger I believe and fitted with alloy heads and mounted further back in the engine bay I'd of thought, That the difference would be to negligible, Does the fitting kit also work with the Iron blocked engines using the T56 transmission ?.

I will mail them myself to ask but he doesn't come across as the type of guy that tolerates fools or being asked stupid questions easily .



Rob

 

[zeeman1972]

The Iron block is also stronger I believe and fitted with alloy heads and mounted further back in the engine bay I'd of thought, That the difference would be to negligible, Does the fitting kit also work with the Iron blocked engines using the T56 transmission ?.

I believe there is negligible difference in strength between the iron and the ali blocks, indeed given the huge power outputs people have reliably eked out of the new ali blocks, I don't think there is anything to worry about by going that route, only the 80lb benefit

The iron block is actually mounted further forward than the ali due to the SBC's distributor which sits at the back of the engine, even going the JTR route which remounts the bonnet catch allowing the engine to go as far back as is possible it still sits further forward and higher than my LS.

The JTR kit is iron block with a variety of gearboxes, though I do't know whether the T56 will fit straight in the hole as the T5 man 4LE auto is predominantly covered. The John's Cars (JCI) kit is Ali block plus T56 or late model electronic auto (can't remember ref number sorry)

I will mail them myself to ask but he doesn't come across as the type of guy that tolerates fools or being asked stupid questions easily .

Which guys are you talking to, Mike Knell (JTR) or John Radovich (JCI)? I have spoken to and bought parts off of both guys and have had nothing but great service from them. Yes they have both got 'no nonsense' reputations but that is generally being born out of lazy people asking them questions that can easily be answered by doing some research elsewhere (Hybridz.org, there own sites, books, etc) or by asking them to develop something specifically for themselves.

Steve

 

[spyro]

Am I right in thinking that the L28 turbo as sold in the USA had a different bell housing that can be mated to a T56 ?

 

[Ian Patmore]

Charlie Boy,
Very nice work on your head...who in Japan built it for you? Good to see the Z community expanding its wings to other worldwide sources for L6 engine work. Looking forward to seeing your car.

Regards
Ian

 

[Charlie Boy]

Charlie Boy,
Very nice work on your head...who in Japan built it for you? Good to see the Z community expanding its wings to other worldwide sources for L6 engine work. Looking forward to seeing your car.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian, the head was organised through Eiji Hosomi who I can thoroughly recommend! I don't know the name of the person who built it in Japan but I do know who he works for and lets just say they have the fastest n/a Fairlady Z drag car in Japan

Also my head is just their standard head not their race one

C

 

[Ian Patmore]

Hi Charlie,
I have heard of Eiji before...well done. I did briefly look getting my engine done in Japan, but I went Stateside instead...see bottom of my posts...

Cheers
Ian

 

[moggy240]

i have been following this thread with much interest but an amazing engine is only part of having a car ,to me its about having a complete package of car,brakes ,suspension and engine and drivetrain etc otherwise you will not get the best out of it otherwise you may aswell stick with a fairly standard engine.
just my opinion.

 

[vpulsar]

i have been following this thread with much interest but an amazing engine is only part of having a car ,to me its about having a complete package of car,brakes ,suspension and engine and drivetrain etc otherwise you will not get the best out of it otherwise you may aswell stick with a fairly standard engine.
just my opinion.

I totally agree mate, But this thread is just about the engine choice, I've already made my mind up on brakes and susp upgrades, I will be buying quite a bit of stuff from the states by the look of things.



Rob

 

[Yokohama]

Am I right in thinking that the L28 turbo as sold in the USA had a different bell housing that can be mated to a T56 ?

The 280ZX Turbo used two transmissions: the 3-speed automatic and the T5. 1981 models only came the automatic as Nissan did not think the stock FS5W71B was strong enough. In 1982 the ZXT got a T5 option.

I do not believe that you can use a T5 bell housing to adapt a T56 (in stock for at least). If you could do that, everyone would be doing it. I know I would. 6-speed is yummy.


As for blocks to use with an overbore: the N42 block has better thickness in the cylinder walls and is a FULL siamesed block. The best years being the ones made for the USA market in 75-76. From what I understand they had higher nickel content in the block. However, any of the N42's are good.
As for the F54, the cylinder walls are thinner for better cooling and coolant passages between the cylinders (hence the non-siamessed), and you can overbore them, but the F54 is really not the first choice as it is a non-siamesed block. I would use an F54 on a turbo engine with stock bore or for high compression on a stock bore.

So, do not believe anyone who tells you the F54 is the choice block for a overbore! They are just repeating what others have been told. The engine builders in Japan have been using the N42 since the start, as they knew the properties of the N42 are way superior. Leave it to the Japanese to be way ahead!

Also, get the block sonic tested and balance all components!!! Do not skip this for a power build. For a stock build with stock bore, you can just rebuild like normal.

From my understanding, the stock L28ET can do 350 BHP at the upper limit with no internal modifications (external only like stand-alone, injectors, ignition, etc.)

 

[spyro]

> As for blocks to use with an overbore: the N42 block has better thickness in the cylinder
> walls. The best years being the ones made for the USA market in 75-76. From what I
> understand they had higher nickel content in the block. However, any of the N42's are
> good.

Is there a good reference for what years various blocks came from?

Am I right in thinking all L28 blocks are closed deck?

> As for the F54, the cylinder walls are siamesed are webbed for better cooling, and you
> can overbore them, but the F54 is really not the first choice. I would use an F54 on a
> turbo engine with stock bore or for high compression on a stock bore.

Ah, so I will end up with a tradeoff. I'm intending to bore and stroke my L28 (LD28 crank if I can get one) but also to supercharge it. So do I go for N42 for thickness, or F54 for cooling...

Whats the word on getting the bores relined? can any good engine shop do it, or are there gotchas?

> From my understanding, the stock L28ET can do 350 BHP at the upper limit with no
> internal modifications (external only like stand-alone, injectors, ignition, etc.)

What breaks at that point? rods? mains? pistons/rings? inadequate oiling?

I'd like to hit about that number so I get 300RWHP, and I'd like to do it reliably, so if internal mods are needed, so be it ;-)

The L28 doesn't have oil squirters to cool the pistons does it?

-Ian

 

[Yokohama]

>

Is there a good reference for what years various blocks came from?

Am I right in thinking all L28 blocks are closed deck?

I can tell you: get the N42 from a 75/76 L28 block (in the USA that is the 75-76 280Z). A second choice would be the 1977+ N42. I think there was a block for the very early 280ZX Turbo that did not have the additional coolant passages (I presume it was more like an N42 maybe). Normal F54 blocks came on the 1981-83 ZXT and on the NA 280ZX in late 1981 to 1983. Also, I meant to say that the F54 is non-siamesed. the N42 is a true siamesed block (check my edited post above, I have made additional edits).

Ah, so I will end up with a tradeoff. I'm intending to bore and stroke my L28 (LD28 crank if I can get one) but also to supercharge it. So do I go for N42 for thickness, or F54 for cooling...

Whats the word on getting the bores relined? can any good engine shop do it, or are there gotchas?

I would go for the N42 when overboring (especially large overbore). The N42 blocks do not really suffer from overheating issues as I understand. I would just use a racing aluminum radiator.
As for relines: you can get cylinder liners put in. Most good shops can do this. Are you thinking about gaining thickness with liners?

> From my understanding, the stock L28ET can do 350 BHP at the upper limit with no
> internal modifications (external only like stand-alone, injectors, ignition, etc.)

What breaks at that point? rods? mains? pistons/rings? inadequate oiling?

I'd like to hit about that number so I get 300RWHP, and I'd like to do it reliably, so if internal mods are needed, so be it ;-)

The L28 doesn't have oil squirters to cool the pistons does it?

-Ian

I would suspect maybe the pistons. They are cast aluminum in stock form and you could maybe have rod issues. There is a reason that you can get uprated pistons and rods. The L28 has oil squirters. I believe all L4/L6 in stock form do.
Really, you should do a full prep engine as you will need to push close to 400 BHP.
You should still be able to order everything from Nissan Competition. You can also order from Motorsport Auto of Orange, CA USA and Arizona Z-car. I believe Arizona Z-car offers billet crankshafts.

 

[vpulsar]

Does anybody know if you can buy a ready made super charger bracket to mount one of those small turbo like super chargers on the L28 engine ?.




Rob

 

[twoforty]

Does anybody know if you can buy a ready made super charger bracket to mount one of those small turbo like super chargers on the L28 engine ?.




Rob

Like the Vortech ones? should be pretty easy to make a bracket to go where the power aircon pump would go. Would need a hefty belt though. I wonder how well they work?