'New' Group 4 racer

[SeanDezart]

Yes, from the people who brought you this works rallye replica comes Racing II - the sequel !

They've conquered the European rallye scene and now turn their attention to crushing the VHC competition. How ? By sneaking upon them a machine designed and built to go further, faster with no expense spared for your appreciation, I present to you the latest in top racing - the Datsun 240Z French Group IV racer !

More facts later - no nail-biting and keep off the edge of your seats please !

 

[SeanDezart]

Rallye car engine and chassis strengthening - be astounded at the complex and highly efficient design and the enterprising choice of an L26 in an historic 240 !

 

[Albrecht]

Sean,

Let's get this straight from the very beginning here ( so's we are not at cross-purposes ): have these people stated - without any misunderstanding - that their intention is to build a 'replica' or 'recreation' of the car that raced at Le Mans in 1975 & 1976?

I don't want to be criticising the results if I don't know their true stated intentions......

 

[SeanDezart]

The story as I've been told is thus :

the preparer of the above car, whose son drives a prototype sponsored by Motors TV has an order (to be confirmed this weekend at Rétromobile, Paris) for a Grp IV racer, just like the car which raced at Le Mans in '75 and '76 - quote " a world championship car" un quote. The director of Motors TV (I don't know if this is going to be his property or the companys' but I imagine it's Motors TV who'll foot the bill) is chummy with the FIA at..........Paris and homologation won't be a problem.

It was told to me that this car would be the only car (allowed to be) eligible to race, not parade but race at Le Mans Classic and will also be raced at other classic car races such as Spa by an American team of drivers. The racing will be folowed up with TV coverage by Motors TV (it is this which leads me to think that Motors TV will foot the bill in return for exploiting the car but the car will remain the personal property of Mr X.) Do you remember me telling you last year that I thought that this would last a season and be sold off at great profit as THE official Le Mans '75 / '76 replica (when Motors TV have finished with it) ?

Call me a cynic but this is just the sort of thing that someone like this might do and certainly in Paris, discussed over an expensive working breakfast ; get someone else to pay for a car, exploit it and sell it on yourself for a profit, together with all the 'right' FIA paperwork !

Lead on MacDuff....................

 

[speedshot]

Hy Guys,
sorry, what has the shown car common with the Le Mans car of 1975 or 76, except the possibly group 4 basis of an rally car and for this point there was mentioned in GT and Tracks... that there was beguilement in the pie? And why there is made such a big fuss of getting the FIA papers? In my oppinion the appendix K is clearly regulating the rules and here under point 3.3 is included the procedure for to specify special models with outside the homologation used parts like used in Le Mans.
Looking forward for exakt explanation.

 

[speedshot]

I have to append, that the car at the photos is made very well. As far as teh picture allows an evaluation.

 

[SeanDezart]

Yeah, right, a riveted roll cage ! And the single most chassis strengthening improvement is a strut bar between each axel, especially at the rear...........

Welcome to the club Joris !

 

[speedshot]

Sean,
do you have a picture of the strengthening of the rear strut bar and would you show it to this? Another generell question is where can I get the big group 4 fender flares and wings.

 

[Legendary5]

Joris,
try this http://www.showcars-bodyparts.com/240z.html
__________________
Guus
the Z-point in the World of Datsun rallying

"Colourful fearsome cars were roaring in the woods again. The sight and sound of the mighty Datsun 240Z's will long be savoured"

 

[Albrecht]

Joris,
try this http://www.showcars-bodyparts.com/240z.html

'Showcars' in Canada have a very poor reputation for quality and delivery. Caveat Emptor.

And anyway, the stuff they sell is nothing like the genuine Factory / Works G.4 parts.

Hy Guys,
sorry, what has the shown car common with the Le Mans car of 1975 or 76, except the possibly group 4 basis of an rally car and for this point there was mentioned in GT and Tracks... that there was beguilement in the pie?

I don't understand this 100% either.
Surely they are going to build another car for the Le Mans project, and Sean is just showing their 'Rallye' car as an example of their work? Is that correct Sean?
Surely they are not basing their Le Mans project on the car pictured????

And why there is made such a big fuss of getting the FIA papers?

As far as I understand it, only one car will be entitled to an FIA-sanctioned 'identity' as a recreation of the car that ran at Le Mans in 1975 & 1976. If this car is a poor recreation / replica of the real car ( presumed destroyed in the accident and fire that claimed thelife of owner / entrant / driver Andre Haller in 1976 ) then it will be:
*A mockery of historical accuracy,
*A block on any more accurate recreation getting an FIA-sanctioned 'identity', and:
*A bloody disgrace.

Sean, I think you need to add your own comments on the above.

In my oppinion the appendix K is clearly regulating the rules and here under point 3.3 is included the procedure for to specify special models with outside the homologation used parts like used in Le Mans.

speedshot, what do you know about the car that actually ran at Le Mans in 1975 and 1976? You mention parts used "....outside the homologation...." used at Le Mans, but what specification / parts in particular are you referring to? I'm interested to hear what you know about it.

Personally speaking ( and I speak as a party who is interested merely in the historical aspects to all of this ) I don't feel sure that many people in Europe know much about the genuine Works-built race cars - of which the 1975 / 76 Le Mans car was an example - and it would appear that most people who have written about the car in the past seem to have been fooled ( very easily ) into thinking that it was an ex-Works rally car. Which was most certainly not the case.





And speedshot - I'd just like to add that I'm mindful that I am asking difficult questions in English, which is not your native language ( although you do very well indeed ). Please accept my apologies for putting you on the spot.

 

[SeanDezart]

I don't understand this 100% either.
Surely they are going to build another car for the Le Mans project, and Sean is just showing their 'Rallye' car as an example of their work? Is that correct Sean?
Surely they are not basing their Le Mans project on the car pictured????

The car in the photograph will NOT be the base for the Grp IV replica !


As far as I understand it, only one car will be entitled to an FIA-sanctioned 'identity' as a recreation of the car that ran at Le Mans in 1975 & 1976. If this car is a poor recreation / replica of the real car ( presumed destroyed in the accident and fire that claimed thelife of owner / entrant / driver Andre Haller in 1976 ) then it will be:
*A mockery of historical accuracy,
*A block on any more accurate recreation getting an FIA-sanctioned 'identity', and:
*A bloody disgrace.

Sean, I think you need to add your own comments on the above.

I am hoping to participate as closely as I can to ensure that the car is at least worthy of the Datsun badge because they will do this car whether I'm involved or not so better to be in the inside advising than outside criticising !

That's why I asked if you wanted to be involved Count ! Your reply, I trust was tongue in cheek !

What concerns me most is the effect of blocking other, better cars coming along later but
a) does anyone know of any projects ?
b) if it's as bad as I suspect it will be (even with my 'limited' input) then the case against it, ie being shown up as an appaling fake would be stronger !

Bloody disgrace - yes and I still think that the motive is money !

Personally speaking ( and I speak as a party who is interested merely in the historical aspects to all of this ) I don't feel sure that many people in Europe know much about the genuine Works-built race cars - of which the 1975 / 76 Le Mans car was an example - and it would appear that most people who have written about the car in the past seem to have been fooled ( very easily ) into thinking that it was an ex-Works rally car. Which was most certainly not the case.

You are quite right Count - there is an enormous lack of hnowledge on the Grp IV cars (even any racers like those in the States) although I don't feel it's entirely our fault - there have been so many people in the know who've not said anything, rumours spread and the unfortunate driver and his car disappearing didn't help. If we'd seen racers and not just rallye cars the story would have been a little different.

Joris - this is a photo of the NISMO strut bar on my car !

 

[Albrecht]

Sean,

That last post from you looks like a huge long quote from me. How can you expect anyone to be arsed to sift through it to try and work out which parts of it are quotes from my original post and which parts are your replies?

You will have to MANUALLY insert the text that you want to quote, and isolate it by adding the correct symbols ( which is what I do ).

For any part of my posts that you want to quote, just start off by writing *QUOTE=Albrecht* ( substitute the * symbols with square opening and closing brackets like this: [ ] )
Then cut and paste my blather, and finish up by enclosing it with */QUOTE* ( again, substitute the * symbols with square opening and closing brackets - and I can't write the exact text out here because it would automatically turn it into me quoting myself......... ) and you can then add your reply.
For the next section you want to quote and reply to, do the same again. Simple, innit?

So, instead of this:
---------------------------------------------------------

Sean, you made a right cat's arse out of that.

Yes Co*nt, I feel such a fool!

----------------------------------------------------------
You get:
----------------------------------------------------------

Sean, you made a right cat's arse out of that

Yes Co*nt, I feel such a fool!

----------------------------------------------------------

Geddit?

 

[speedshot]

Dear Albrecht,
you don’t have to apologize putting me on the spot. I have been asking for some answers, not you.
First I should introduce myself, and my liaison to Datsun Z, so that people of the forum can follow my intentions.
I bought my Z 18 years ago without knowing a lot about the cars. I was just fascinated about the shape and the six cylinder engine. For the restoration I needed 15 years, due to three relocations and the fact that I decided and has done some tuning to the suspension and the motor. I am not a mechanic, I had to learn by doing and listening to other people (Nobady did know Datsun Z) and studying literature. Ma target was to use parts and technology not later than 1978. I have done with success. At a hill climb we beat three 911 in race trim. My car is equipped with leather and A/C.
What I have learned about the race history during that time is most from English written books. And there are only to main chapters. The ralley cars and the SCCA. Online search showed mostly no concrete results. Anyway, last summer I have got in contact with Mr. Klaus Fritzinger. He is a national legend of rally driving. He is knowing all the drivers like Toni Fall, Rauno Altonen and so on from his active time as driver in the 70th. He has built a 240 Z Rally car. The car has got the FIA papers. In autumn he competed in the Sardinien Rally and finished fourth against a field with 30 Porsche. So my, since two years fostered intention building a race car has got new wind. But it should be a car for tracks. I know only a few pictures about the Le Mans cars and nothing about other cars for track racing with FIA papers.
Lets come to a conclusion. I have studied the homologation papers. Two things are conspicuous. In the homologation papers from the DMSB (German Motorsport Federation) I can not find the front air dam. Also the fender flares of the Le Mans cars seem to be much bigger than the two sets shown in the homologation papers. No misunderstanding. I don´t want to copy the LEMANS cars, but for getting the papers when using for example such an air dam, I have to verify that the parts have been used in an official race. The Appendix K (Point 3 and 7) gives you the chance to use other parts which are outside of the homologation, when it is verified, for example with original photos, that they have been used.
I hope I have not done myself to much to the foreground. I´m looking forward to get some answers to all my questions.
And English is quite simple with an online-dictionary and when constructing plain sentences.
Joris

 

[speedshot]

Joris - this is a photo of the NISMO strut bar on my car !

Hy Jean,
that´s the style of strut bar which I think is really the best. I have the bars from MOTORSPORT AUTO. I´m not so satisfied, cause the fittings are easy bending.
Has NISMO produced, or does NISMO still produce parts for the Z?

 

[Legendary5]

Klaus was quicker as Ad Verkuijlen in Sardinia, who also has a group 4 car.

Here's the latest photograph of Klaus his car.. Sean would be very pleased, no historical colour scheme!! Joris if you know Klaus you must know Ralf Dohring as well?

 

[STEVE BURNS]

you must know Ralf Dohring as well?

slightly of topic
how is ralf havn't spoken to him for a few years now

 

[Legendary5]

He’s well!! Still driving his yellow ‘Elvis’ as he calls him. Just got his second Z back from the painter, a red devil…. He ‘s enjoying him self together with his wife in many rallies.

 

[Albrecht]

Anyway, last summer I have got in contact with Mr. Klaus Fritzinger. He is a national legend of rally driving. He is knowing all the drivers like Toni Fall, Rauno Altonen and so on from his active time as driver in the 70th.

Hi speedshot,
Yes, I know Klaus. I sourced some parts from Japan for him a few years ago.

I know only a few pictures about the Le Mans cars and nothing about other cars for track racing with FIA papers.

You really need to look at the 'Works' built Japanese Group 4 and Group 5 race cars. They ran under FIA / Japan Automobile Federation rules and therefore should be a big help in proving eligibility of special parts.

Lets come to a conclusion. I have studied the homologation papers. Two things are conspicuous. In the homologation papers from the DMSB (German Motorsport Federation) I can not find the front air dam. Also the fender flares of the Le Mans cars seem to be much bigger than the two sets shown in the homologation papers.

First of all, the front air dam and super-wide 'Overfenders' ( in fact, several versions of them over the space of a couple of years ) were sold to the general public in Japan through Nissan's 'Sports Option' catalogues. If you have copies of the catalogues and pictures of the cars racing in period, then you should be able to prove to your sanctioning body that the parts are 'legal' to use.

I'm not sure how your sanctioning body interprets the regulations, but as far as I am aware the original stipulation allowed for Overfenders that were a certain percentage wider than the homologated parts to be used. I presume that you are referring to the wide overfenders illustrated in the section amendment 13/12V of FIA homologation no.3023? You have to be careful, as I don't think the pictures on the homologation papers show just how wide those Overfenders really were.

No misunderstanding. I don´t want to copy the LEMANS cars, but for getting the papers when using for example such an air dam, I have to verify that the parts have been used in an official race. The Appendix K (Point 3 and 7) gives you the chance to use other parts which are outside of the homologation, when it is verified, for example with original photos, that they have been used.

That's easy. Maybe I can help you with it?

Anyway, please see the attached picture - which is a scan from one of Nissan Japan's 'Sports Option' catalogues of the early Seventies, which illustrates one of the front air dam types as used on the Works aerodynamic Group 4 & 5 cars. I think this is what you are looking for.

Still available as a good replica in Japan, by the way.

 

[speedshot]

Klaus was quicker as Ad Verkuijlen in Sardinia, who also has a group 4 car.

Here's the latest photograph of Klaus his car.. Sean would be very pleased, no historical colour scheme!! Joris if you know Klaus you must know Ralf Dohring as well?

No sorry. As I explained, I just got in contact with Klaus last year the first time. Meanwhile I had two visits at his place to have a look under the bonnet of his car and to speak about building a race car and about the FIA-paper procedure for an Gr 4 for the historical FIA class. Klaus car is very pretty made with a lot of fine tuning. He promised me to help. His words: "I like people how are crazy enough to start such an enterprise.

 

[speedshot]

should[/i] be able to prove to your sanctioning body that the parts are 'legal' to use.]

Hello Albrecht,
first thank you for the informations. Slowly there is comming light into the dark.
I don´t have the catalogue. Where can I get one?
Another question is. Which rim and tire sizes were used? I think the tires shown at the picture of the Le Mans cars are to big - may be 250 and 350 were used - for the rims which were homologated (max. 7" at the front, 10" at the rear)?
A lot of open questions.
First I will now start to check NISSAN itself for the part numbers, which are mentioned in the homologation papers.