TWO WORKS RALLY CARS>

[Albrecht]

And what has happened to these cars now?
Who has got them and what are they going to DO with them?

Well,
'LAL 909K' sold at the auction, and I am told that it was going to Greece........ No idea who has bought it, and no idea whether they will take all the ex-Works parts off it and return it to its correct mid-Seventies period guise.

'PTD 524K' was not sold, and is still in the hands of Mr Arthur Carter.

Remember: Both of these cars were dressed up as ex-Works rally cars, but neither has a genuine Works-built rally bodyshell. Essentially, they are a conglomeration of ex-Works parts attached to a pair of modified standard production bodyshells.

I actually think this throws up some potentially interesting philosophical points: One of the cars ( 'LAL 909K' ) was actually the car that it was being described in the auction catalogue as - despite the fact that it had been 'disguised' as an ex-Works rally car in the past - and the other was not what it was originally purported to be ( the fact that it had been re-shelled was acknowledged ) - even though it undoubtedly had some parts from '696' ( amongst others ) attached to it, and its engine bay tag had been re-stamped.

This whole issue of re-shelling of monocoque / unibody cars is very thorny, and the 'like-for-like' argument can be cited in relation to standard production cars. But one thing I feel sure of is that you cannot throw away 'Part Number One' on a Works-built 240Z rally car ( the special bodyshell, with its unique stamped firewall VIN prefix and body serial number ) and replace it with a standard road car shell without losing the car's real identity........... regardless of what numbers you attach to it.

Which is kind of where this thread got started. Anybody want to take up the baton?

 

[ZHead]

Totally agree that the real identity is lost - all you can hope for is a vanity id.

If you swap id's and claim the car is something it is not you are a liar and a fraud, if you swap id's and hold your hands up that you have borrowed a number for vanity's sake that is ok in my book because it then becomes a game and not too serious

 

[SeanDezart]

Bit like HS30-00025 then ?

 

[ZHead]

Takes you a bit of time to catch up doesn't it Sean ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Andy,

Are you so sure I'm behind you ?

I've copied from the other thread (Samuri Engineering) the most pertinent text you have written so far :

"Whilst we are on the owning up subject I am also trying to get chassis
HS30-00025 registered with a period plate but DVLA are not playing ball as I would hope. It is NOT the original car by a long shot but a rebuilt shell with the original number, and I mean the ORIGINAL number. There is quite some provenence talking about the car's accident, damage and subsequent shell change , eventually becoming Big Sam.

00025 was reshelled and eventually ended up as Big Sam with another chassis number so in no way would the number 00025 have ever been part of Big Sam. People are looking for the dark and devious when in fact there is nothing of that nature, just a desire and attempt to put a very old chassis number back on the road albeit in a different guise.

I said the original number....... what I have is a small section of bulkhead which has the genuine and original number on it, hence any rebuilt shell could in no way claim to be original - it would merely have assumed an identity.
There is no point me trying to pretend that the original shell has been rebuilt because it simply has not - what I am attempting to do (and struggling) is to transplant an identity.

Which ever way you look at it the whole Samuri and Big Sam story has achieved some degree of notoriety and is the basis for a fiery but healthy debate.

Why let sleeping dogs lie Sean ? The intention would not be to glorify the past but to move forward with new ideas, new mods, push the cars harder."

So let's continue this healthy debate (and I trust the moderators will move the posts as they see necessary :

All the text written so far revolves around you using the original chassis number plate (cut from the bulkhead) on a 'new' shell - right ?

What if someone throws into that equation, the hypothesis that that chassis number plate might not be the original ? That would surely give whatever car it was used in, no Samuri identity whatsoever - no ?

 

[Albrecht]

What if someone throws into that equation, the hypothesis that that chassis number plate might not be the original ? That would surely give whatever car it was used in, no Samuri identity whatsoever - no ?

Sean,

Might not be the "original" what?

Are you saying that ZHead's piece of metal with the number 'HS30-00025' stamped on it is not from the original 'HS30-00025'?
Or are you saying that the original version of the car known as 'Big Sam' ( before it was re-shelled ) - an ex-Works 1970 RAC rally car - was not 'HS30-00025'?

Don't fanny about. Write what you want to say clearly and straightforwardly. Don't repeat hearsay and popular mythology without either corroboration to back it up or damning evidence to prove it wrong.

Don't add more OXO to the Samuri soup ( please! ).

 

[SeanDezart]

I am theorising 'what-if' Andys' piece of metal with the number 'HS30-00025' stamped on it is not from the original 'HS30-00025' !

I am NOT saying that the original version of the car known as 'Big Sam' ( before it was re-shelled ) - an ex-Works 1970 RAC rally car - was not 'HS30-00025' ! Ok ?

I have no proof but have seen photos of what look to be stamping plates.

I'm curious now what William Galliers said when the 'piece of metal' was sold !

I thought that was what people liked ; the Samuri myth !

 

[Albrecht]

I am theorising 'what-if' Andys' piece of metal with the number 'HS30-00025' stamped on it is not from the original 'HS30-00025' !

I'd say that 'theorising' is fine, just so long as it is made quite clear at the time that this is what you are doing. It is misleading and confusing to make it sound as though you have 'evidence', when in fact you are only positing theoretical scenarios.

I am NOT saying that the original version of the car known as 'Big Sam' ( before it was re-shelled ) - an ex-Works 1970 RAC rally car - was not 'HS30-00025' ! Ok ?

Good. It has been hard enough to convince anybody that the current bodyshell of the car known as 'Big Sam' was not "Shekhar Mehta's 1972 Safari Rally Car" - or even any ex-Safari Rally car.....

I have no proof but have seen photos of what look to be stamping plates.

I'm curious now what William Galliers said when the 'piece of metal' was sold !

I think a proprietary number and letter stamp set is quite easily distinguished from the proper VIN prefix and body serial number stamp applied to the firewall sheetmetal by Nissan Shatai. An engraving might be more accurate, but making and selling such a thing would obviously be fakery - and tantamount to fraud. In which case I'd be careful about what you write....... even if it is only 'theoretical'.

I thought that was what people liked ; the Samuri myth !

Stirring the pot does seem to bring a lot of odd looking and funny smelling ingredients to the surface, doesn't it?

 

[SeanDezart]

"I think a proprietary number and letter stamp set is quite easily distinguished from the proper VIN prefix and body serial number stamp applied to the firewall sheetmetal by Nissan Shatai"

I would say that anything is 'copyable' given the right input and means ! All the figures can be scrutineered from several bulkheads in order to get any potential stamp plates correct and IF the original no longer existed, what would one compare any copy (if it existed) to ?
Certainly, any owner would not want to admit to owning a fraud (if that was the case) - a bit like the Emporers' cloak ?

The photos (if they still exist) were taken before digital cameras so I cannot share any so called proof as the photos (if they exist) are still in the hands of the owner of said photos (if they exist .

Better to let sleeping dogs lie !

 

[ZHead]

Sean you have missed the point ENTIRELY. The piece of metal is original but has nothing really to do with Samuri - it is a chassis number from a well known period works rally car.


This number will not be put into a road car now, it will be put into a non road registered racing car eventually - again and I emphasise, NOT TO DECEIVE and not to pretend it is anything other than a piece of metal with a number on it from a works car. I could just as easily have used the lighter works panels or wheels.

You are getting very het up over nothing.

Samuri myth is one thing but incessant needling and digging does nothing to enhance Samuri or Sean Dezart.

 

[grolls]

Samuri myth is one thing but incessant needling and digging does nothing to enhance Samuri or Sean Dezart.

lets not worry about sean, he's got broad shoulders....lol

The fact still remains that all is not as it seems as to who did what and to what car and indeed where each piece is....will we ever know the whole truth? i doubt it very much.....some of the stories i have been told make a mockery of it all!

A pinch of salt springs to mind and gosh i'm really starting to enjoy the z history!



I wonder if the ford escort has the same issues?

 

[Albrecht]

The fact still remains that all is not as it seems as to who did what and to what car and indeed where each piece is....will we ever know the whole truth? i doubt it very much.....some of the stories i have been told make a mockery of it all!

In my experience, it seems best to ignore anecdotal period 'evidence' about certain cars and go back to basics. You need to get near to the source to find the purest spring water, and avoid drinking downstream.

I wonder if the ford escort has the same issues?

Much, much, much worse. The Ford 'Works' competition department themselves indulged in all sorts of activities that might now be seen as 'skullduggery', but were taken much more lightheartedly back in the day. They had that in common with most of the racing world, although Nissan were perhaps basically less inclined to mess around with chassis and registration numbers than many of their contemporaries.

But they still 'cheated'. Everyone did.

 

[Albrecht]

Sean you have missed the point ENTIRELY. The piece of metal is original but has nothing really to do with Samuri - it is a chassis number from a well known period works rally car.

Exactly. The above paragraph needs to be put on a blue plaque.

This number will not be put into a road car now, it will be put into a non road registered racing car eventually - again and I emphasise, NOT TO DECEIVE and not to pretend it is anything other than a piece of metal with a number on it from a works car.

I'm glad to hear that you will not be attaching the number to your current project car. I think this is going to be a much better long-term choice.

Your car will be able to stand on its own merits, and will not need to have any inherited or implied 'history' from another period.

Good call, I say.

 

[grolls]

In my experience, it seems best to ignore anecdotal period 'evidence' about certain cars and go back to basics. You need to get near to the source to find the purest spring water, and avoid drinking downstream.
.

A fair bit of it was in open discussion but some was in private but there was no "period evidence" so to speak of, apart from newbies feathering their own caps from the masters on disguise of course!

this is just like murder,mystery.......most of it poo! .......A major car company cheating? ........never!

 

[Albrecht]

...... apart from newbies feathering their own caps from the masters on disguise of course!

Nice quote!

I'll nick that and stash it for future use.

 

[SeanDezart]

Why should I want to enhance "Samuri" ? I have no wish either to tarnish the name !

"Sean you have missed the point ENTIRELY. The piece of metal is original but has nothing really to do with Samuri - it is a chassis number from a well known period works rally car."

I haven't connected the number plaque with Samuri - you have, you bought it, you are Samuri QED !

How do you know that the plaque is original btw ?

 

[ZHead]

How do you know that the plaque is original btw ?

Because I know who cut the shell up, I know why he kept this piece and I know where the rest of it went. It is a piece of metal with a number on, that's all.

It amazes me how much energy is being spent pointing fingers and how little energy is being spent doing or saying anything constructive. A psychologist would have a field day with some of the attitudes I see here

 

[SeanDezart]

I'm a lost case ! I've aleady seen 3 and worn them all out !

I thought any discussion was constructive ? Aint no fingers being pointed, does anyone feel a finger pointed at them - they would be very sensitive then !

As for energy, doesn't take much to type a few words out !
After this past weeks' work, it's all I could do

Just think of all the kudos in gaining Z Club members (or Z owners and enthusiasts if you prefer) 'approval' in the light of all that has been discussed here ! After all, that's what the project needs !

Glad to see that friendly discussions continue, especially in the light of my dear Counts' comments.

It would be nice if the possible Samuri exploitation was available to more hard-core Z owners !

 

[ZHead]

.

they would be very sensitive then !

Not me, I am pretty thich skinned, just tired of inane nonsense and arguments that seem to come from deep rooted insecurity. The arguments are innacurate, badly thought out and tiresome for the most part but hey ho, it is a cross the rest of us have to bear.

Just think of all the kudos in gaining Z Club members (or Z owners and enthusiasts if you prefer) 'approval' in the light of all that has been discussed here ! After all, that's what the project needs !

I need no approval to build my car - it is being built for me, how I want it. The only "approval" I need is my own satisfaction at the end. Do you feel you need other people's approval for the car you are having built ? I have to say it is rather sad if you do.

It would be nice if the possible Samuri exploitation was available to more hard-core Z owners !

Exploitation ? I have a piece of paper, that is hardly exploitation. It would be interesting to understand where you are coming from.

"More hard-core" ? Shouldn't that sort of thing be kept to Max Power ?

So are you more hard-core ? how so ? Does that make me soft-core ?

Anyway, YET AGAIN you have turned a thread on "Two Works Rally Cars" into a "Sean takes a pop" thread.

Well done that man !!

 

[SeanDezart]

"inane nonsense and arguments that seem to come from deep rooted insecurity. The arguments are innacurate, badly thought out and tiresome for the most part"

Your opinions Andy, like your opinion of who cut up the shell, I heard that the complete shell was junked by the previous owner of Samuri Engineering !

Insecure ? You're being petty and you don't like the questions being asked - sorry, I will after this post leave you alone on the subject - feel better ?

It's a small Z world Andy, and 'approval' was in inverted commas as I know you don't need approval. But it's nice all the same to hear 'go on mate - do it', rather than 'shouldn't be allowed to resurrect past glories' ! I was also referring NOT to your road car but your possible race car project with HS30-000025 !

Apologies, exploitation in the French sense ( force of habit to think in another langauge and translate back to English) - I will say instead - Samuri development or evolution. More hard-core implies that there is already at least one hard-core enthusiast - you, not at all 'soft-core' where are YOU coming from ?

And no, I don't consider myself 'hard-core', what I meant was that it would genuinely be nice if your Samuri development would not be available just for the very well off.
I feel that most of the Z fans are in this club (where you have announced your plans and advertise) and that it would be nice for the general Z enthusiats to benefit from your Samuri evolution - I think it would be nice to go forward together !

And now it's good night from mme and it's goodnight from him !