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CLASSIC CARS Magazine - here we go again...
- Thread starter Albrecht
- Start date
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
"Z-fan",
S'funny you know, if I read the above out loud it actually sounds like it was written by somebody who knows how to write.
Then when I look at it properly and see all those awkward spelling mistakes, they look somewhat forced. Funny that. Almost like someone is pretending to be less educated than they really are. Curious.........
I don't mind you calling me "pompous" - you would not be the first - but I don't see how you can say I've not been reasonable. I think writing an article in a magazine and not getting the facts right is a crying shame. It's one of my pet hates. I think it's reasonable to expect someone writing such an "artical" to get the facts straight. So the Z 'won' - so what? We have to be grateful and overlook the mistakes?
Maybe the Goertz thing was kind of understandable given that magazines like Classic Cars have been doing the same thing for years, and The Classic Z Register sees fit to have Goertz as an 'Honourary Member' ( how bizarre ). But where did all that Prince and R34 GT-R engine nonsense come from? That's really crap journalism.
I've tried writing the fact-correcting letters to magazines before on the Goertz issue, but have yet to see one printed. Maybe I was too "pompous" eh? I had a big thing going earlier this year with VINTAGE RACECAR magazine, with regard to an article that purported to be a road test of a genuine ex-Works 240Z rally car ( 8 pages plus the cover, no less! ). The car was nothing of the sort, and the article was complete garbage - even contradicting itself several times. We got a whole bunch of people e-mailing the Editor and the journalist who wrote the article, and they went through all the motions of being apologetic and promising to publish corrections etc. Did they? Did they hell! The only feedback in subsequent issues was congratulatory fluff thanking them for finding such a rare beast. Now its in print its gospel. Reference material for future mistakes...........
And anyway, I don't think it will be necessary to contact CLASSIC CARS directly. They are quite aware about the gripe. They've read this thread. Haven't you Mr Waddington?
Maybe I am a pompous and bigheaded loudmouth, but I think if you ignore the 'style' of my presentation and just look at the point I am making about FACTS, you will see that I am not wrong. This is not MY 'opinion' we are talking about here - everyone has one of them, and they all differ - its FACTS that are the issue.
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
i just found your comments un-needed, distasteful and quite obviously wrong.
SINCE WHEN ?
" One of the big problems is that there has always been a big prejudice against the Japanese and Orientals in general "
YOUV'E OBVIOUSLY BEEN READING THE WRONG BOOKS WHEN YOU WROTE THIS! AS FAR AS I KNEW THE JAPANESE WERE AMONG THE MOST RESPECTED RACE IN THE WORLD TODAY FOR THEIR INGINEWITY!
"and to be honest amongst people of a certain age there still seems to remain something of the wartime propaganda that characterised the Japanese as stunted, short-sighted, buck-toothed monkeys with peanut sized brains. "
AS FOR THIS PART RATHER THAN GET ON YOUR HIGH HORSE AND MOAN ABOUT ALL THESE PEOPLE GETTING IT WRONG, DO SOMETHING RIGHT AND POST PROOF AND FACTS SO THE CORRECT PEOPLE GET THE RECOGNITION THE OBVIOUSLY DESERVE"!
Without going into a full treatise on Japanese industrial design and engineering of the Twentieth Century, let me just say that there were young men and women with the aspirations, desire, intelligence and talent to produce a car like the S30-series Z, and they did. It's a crying shame that nobody will give them the recognition or credit they deserve, and prefer to pin it on the chest of an itinerant chancer 'stylist'.
I HAVE DELETED MY OTHER POSTS IN HERE SO TO KEEP THIS POST CLEAN SO IT MAY REMAIN AS IVE BEEN HINTED AT. I SHALL ALSO DELETE THIS ONE TOMMOROW NIGHT! ALL I ASK IS THAT IF YOUR GOING TO POST THINGS LIKE PEOPLES IGNORANCE AND RACIALISM( BECAUSE I FEEL THATS WHAT YOU ACCUSE A CERTAIN AGE OF) THEN PLEASE THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE.
SINCE WHEN ?
" One of the big problems is that there has always been a big prejudice against the Japanese and Orientals in general "
YOUV'E OBVIOUSLY BEEN READING THE WRONG BOOKS WHEN YOU WROTE THIS! AS FAR AS I KNEW THE JAPANESE WERE AMONG THE MOST RESPECTED RACE IN THE WORLD TODAY FOR THEIR INGINEWITY!
"and to be honest amongst people of a certain age there still seems to remain something of the wartime propaganda that characterised the Japanese as stunted, short-sighted, buck-toothed monkeys with peanut sized brains. "
AS FOR THIS PART RATHER THAN GET ON YOUR HIGH HORSE AND MOAN ABOUT ALL THESE PEOPLE GETTING IT WRONG, DO SOMETHING RIGHT AND POST PROOF AND FACTS SO THE CORRECT PEOPLE GET THE RECOGNITION THE OBVIOUSLY DESERVE"!
Without going into a full treatise on Japanese industrial design and engineering of the Twentieth Century, let me just say that there were young men and women with the aspirations, desire, intelligence and talent to produce a car like the S30-series Z, and they did. It's a crying shame that nobody will give them the recognition or credit they deserve, and prefer to pin it on the chest of an itinerant chancer 'stylist'.
I HAVE DELETED MY OTHER POSTS IN HERE SO TO KEEP THIS POST CLEAN SO IT MAY REMAIN AS IVE BEEN HINTED AT. I SHALL ALSO DELETE THIS ONE TOMMOROW NIGHT! ALL I ASK IS THAT IF YOUR GOING TO POST THINGS LIKE PEOPLES IGNORANCE AND RACIALISM( BECAUSE I FEEL THATS WHAT YOU ACCUSE A CERTAIN AGE OF) THEN PLEASE THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Just back from the pub then, Grolls?
Actually, I usually do think before I type. I also read through what I have written a few times before pressing the SUBMIT REPLY button. I suspect your technique might be somewhat different.
I don't usually go back and delete any posts that I have made, and also very rarely edit them more than a few minutes after I have submitted them, if at all. Again, I think your technique is somewhat different.
I've quoted your post in full ( you don't seem to have grasped how to do this just yet ) just so that my answers will make sense to anybody reading the thread once you have gone back and deleted / edited it. Savvy?
Here's an extra quote from you:
Here's a comment from up here on my high horse - can you hear me down there?
Go back to the list that I wrote out and read it. Try to understand it. The people that I have name-checked are the people who actually designed, engineered and productionised the first generation S30-series Z cars. As for "proof" and "facts" - these are fairly well known in Japan and in Japanese automotive journalism. Short of buying you a ticket to Japan and arranging for you to interview some of the people concerned, I don't know what "proof" would suffice for you. Got any suggestions?
Yours pompously, etc.
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
no im not back from the pub! ive just finnished work!
also, i also read things before i post ,many times too! but i can honestly say i make mistakes like any one, i thought i was doing you a favour by allowing you to go ahead and prove your point with regarding as who designed such a beautiful car!
i too can print names on a forum as you have but this is not PROOF!
Are you that gullable to think you can change peoples thoughts in the motoring industry with just a few names?
i for one put the design of this car in the japanese hands full stop and for whats its worth do i think the original designers give a toss right now who got the recognition for a car 30 years ago ?....no!...why? because they move on and dont dwell in the past like any reasnable person would do.......
i say again, if you wish too PROVE who designed this car then get PROOF. just dont moan and bleat on about the same old crap and then cast aspersians upon ppl that cant answer!
also, i also read things before i post ,many times too! but i can honestly say i make mistakes like any one, i thought i was doing you a favour by allowing you to go ahead and prove your point with regarding as who designed such a beautiful car!
i too can print names on a forum as you have but this is not PROOF!
Are you that gullable to think you can change peoples thoughts in the motoring industry with just a few names?
i for one put the design of this car in the japanese hands full stop and for whats its worth do i think the original designers give a toss right now who got the recognition for a car 30 years ago ?....no!...why? because they move on and dont dwell in the past like any reasnable person would do.......
i say again, if you wish too PROVE who designed this car then get PROOF. just dont moan and bleat on about the same old crap and then cast aspersians upon ppl that cant answer!
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
grolls,
I don't think I'm any more gullible than the next bloke, and I'm certainly under no illusions that I could change the minds of anyone in the automotive industry. What makes you think that's what I'm trying to do here anyway?
What I'm talking about is much more simple. The journalist in question didn't even broach the subject about any counter-claim to Goertz's contribution. He also wrote a complete load of bollocks about Mercedes-Benz, Prince, "Datsun", and a direct link between the L24 engine in Jon Newlyn's HS30 and the R34 Skyline GT-R.
If a journalist had made such a carve-up about any of the other cars in the article, the relevant owners clubs and indeed the owners themselves would be on the case. In the case of the Z, its almost a case of "let's be thankful he said something nice about it.... What a desperately piss-poor reaction! SNAFU for the UK "Z Scene" ( yeah - Situation Normal, All F*cked Up ). Totally useless.
Not so. They do give a toss and I know they do. I've met Matsuo three times now, and he is naturally very proud of what he and his team achieved. Many of the people in the list I wrote out have been interviewed by the Japanese press over the last couple of years ( especially since the debut of the Z33 ) and NHK made a historical documentary TV programme about the birth of the first generation Z. Matsuo and other team members were interviewed and told their side of the story.
And they are reasonable people. You are in no position to imply that they are not.
Who can't answer grolls? Goertz is still alive, and - to turn your argument on its head a little - I've never seen any of his "proof" that he did "design" the car. In fact, the more the evidence backs up against his claims, the more he climbs down about it. If anything, he hasn't been confronted about it enough in my opinion. It doesn't help when organisations such as The Z Club of GB and The Classic Z Register have been seen to endorse him for so many years.
If anyone wants to know, the story is out there. What seems to get lost in all this is that the car is a Japanese car, and therefore the true story about its genesis is more likely to come from Japan.
How about you tell me exactly what "proof" you want to see? And more to the point, what exactly do you expect me to present on this website, and on this thread, that will satisfy you? I'm very interested to hear your answer.
But I'm not holding my breath.
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
firstly.. please dont hold your breath for too long i would hate to come on the site and see no reply!
sorry but i have to cut and paste as im a computer beginer...sorry n hard cheese! OH AND I'LL TRY NOT TO PUT AN EDIT IN HERE SO I'LL LEAVE ALL THE SMELLING PISTAKES OK.
YOU WROTE.
"grolls,
I don't think I'm any more gullible than the next bloke, and I'm certainly under no illusions that I could change the minds of anyone in the automotive industry. What makes you think that's what I'm trying to do here anyway?"
YOU WROTE.
I've tried writing the fact-correcting letters to magazines before on the Goertz issue, but have yet to see one printed. Maybe I was too "pompous" eh? I had a big thing going earlier this year with VINTAGE RACECAR magazine, with regard to an article that purported to be a road test of a genuine ex-Works 240Z rally car ( 8 pages plus the cover, no less! ). The car was nothing of the sort, and the article was complete garbage - even contradicting itself several times. We got a whole bunch of people e-mailing the Editor and the journalist who wrote the article, and they went through all the motions of being apologetic and promising to publish corrections etc. Did they? Did they hell! The only feedback in subsequent issues was congratulatory fluff thanking them for finding such a rare beast. Now its in print its gospel. Reference material for future mistakes...........
mmmmm. a slight condradiction!
YOU WROTE.
"What I'm talking about is much more simple. The journalist in question didn't even broach the subject about any counter-claim to Goertz's contribution. He also wrote a complete load of bollocks about Mercedes-Benz, Prince, "Datsun", and a direct link between the L24 engine in Jon Newlyn's HS30 and the R34 Skyline GT-R."
i would suspect many people like myself do not know what the hell an hs30/l24 is!... i have posted a request before asking for some kind soul to list all the numbers and what they mean... i certainly dont have the time or patience or even the inclination to sit and research it.. maybe thats why many people dont pass comment in here....ignorance? call it that if you will but i would suspect 90% of datsun/nissan owners dont know them either.....and yes i do want it all on a plate. As far as im concerned a web site like this should have as much information to help its members at the touch of a button, hence why i started the electrical section purely to stir some interest and get ppl motivated...maybe you could do the same with a number post?
as for your request regarding proof of the designer of the z perhaps if they were that botherd about it they would put word in into print then there could be no dispute as mr goertz would surely duck!
me personally i dont care who designed the car im afraid as i have no interest in that part of its history, i just love the z for what it is and i would think many ppl think the same!(A JAPANESE SPORTS CAR)
just a little thought; when the car was first released there must have been press releases in that era,maybe you should go down that road on your quest to prove the design team.
SORRY BUT I COULDN'T HELP HITTING THE EDIT BUTTON......JUST SEEMED NATURAL!
sorry but i have to cut and paste as im a computer beginer...sorry n hard cheese! OH AND I'LL TRY NOT TO PUT AN EDIT IN HERE SO I'LL LEAVE ALL THE SMELLING PISTAKES OK.
YOU WROTE.
"grolls,
I don't think I'm any more gullible than the next bloke, and I'm certainly under no illusions that I could change the minds of anyone in the automotive industry. What makes you think that's what I'm trying to do here anyway?"
YOU WROTE.
I've tried writing the fact-correcting letters to magazines before on the Goertz issue, but have yet to see one printed. Maybe I was too "pompous" eh? I had a big thing going earlier this year with VINTAGE RACECAR magazine, with regard to an article that purported to be a road test of a genuine ex-Works 240Z rally car ( 8 pages plus the cover, no less! ). The car was nothing of the sort, and the article was complete garbage - even contradicting itself several times. We got a whole bunch of people e-mailing the Editor and the journalist who wrote the article, and they went through all the motions of being apologetic and promising to publish corrections etc. Did they? Did they hell! The only feedback in subsequent issues was congratulatory fluff thanking them for finding such a rare beast. Now its in print its gospel. Reference material for future mistakes...........
mmmmm. a slight condradiction!
YOU WROTE.
"What I'm talking about is much more simple. The journalist in question didn't even broach the subject about any counter-claim to Goertz's contribution. He also wrote a complete load of bollocks about Mercedes-Benz, Prince, "Datsun", and a direct link between the L24 engine in Jon Newlyn's HS30 and the R34 Skyline GT-R."
i would suspect many people like myself do not know what the hell an hs30/l24 is!... i have posted a request before asking for some kind soul to list all the numbers and what they mean... i certainly dont have the time or patience or even the inclination to sit and research it.. maybe thats why many people dont pass comment in here....ignorance? call it that if you will but i would suspect 90% of datsun/nissan owners dont know them either.....and yes i do want it all on a plate. As far as im concerned a web site like this should have as much information to help its members at the touch of a button, hence why i started the electrical section purely to stir some interest and get ppl motivated...maybe you could do the same with a number post?
as for your request regarding proof of the designer of the z perhaps if they were that botherd about it they would put word in into print then there could be no dispute as mr goertz would surely duck!
me personally i dont care who designed the car im afraid as i have no interest in that part of its history, i just love the z for what it is and i would think many ppl think the same!(A JAPANESE SPORTS CAR)
just a little thought; when the car was first released there must have been press releases in that era,maybe you should go down that road on your quest to prove the design team.
SORRY BUT I COULDN'T HELP HITTING THE EDIT BUTTON......JUST SEEMED NATURAL!
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Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Nobody ever handed me all the info I wanted on a plate. If anyone has a thirst for knowledge or information then the most effective way to slake that thirst is to go looking for the answers yourself. Learning is an interactive process, surely? You have to put some effort in to get something out of it.
Don't worry about me - I know who "designed" the S30-series Z cars, and I have all the "proof" that anyone would need. It IS all in print - but most of it is in Japanese. There's about 35 years worth of it. Where do you want to start?
That says it all, really. I suppose that many people will agree with you and think that this viewpoint is admirable, but personally I would call it a form of inverted snobbery. For my part, I would contend that you can't "love the Z for what it is" unless you actually know something about what it is, where it came from and how it came to be. Loving it for what it is would be something that comes after learning about it.
If you confess to not having any interest in this side of it, then why participate on a thread like this? All that happens is that the person who sticks up for a bit of truth and accuracy gets turned on by the pack. Look at the first reply on this thread. In essence, the person who posted it is telling me to shut up. You'll see any number of gormless threads and posts on a forum like this, but as soon as anyone steps out of line and tries to stick up for a bit of historical accuracy they will get shot down in flames.
I don't need to "prove" anything! This is all stuff in the public domain. Sure there were press releases, and information about the design process etc - but you seem to forget that the S30-series Z is a Japanese car, designed in Japan by Japanese people, built in Japan by a Japanese company, and which debuted to the world in Japan. The story was / is best documented ( then as well as now ) in Japanese. The problem is that most owners - let alone journalists and historians - don't want to put any effort into researching a Japanese car through Japanese sources.
See the way this thread gets turned into a slanging match straight away? Its always the same. Dog eating dog.
DJZ 60
Well-Known Forum User
Hi all.
Firstly ,I would like to stress that,the following is my own
personal opinion, delivered openly & without worrying what any
one think's of me etc.
This thread is about 'setting the record straight' on an
important part of Z history.
Albrect is passionate about the truth, as would be anybody
who has attempted to find out the origin's of happening's or
in this case factual credit where it is deserved.
Everything else is a deviation,which further marr's &
ridicules not only the car's that bring us together,but an overall
danger of the Z car's not being taken seriously,respected &
further taken for granted.
The saddest thing for me is,everything so obviously point's
in the direction of Japan,as regarding design,production & tell
tell sign's that this car is definately JAPANESE.
When man first put a foot on the moon,his name is credited.
when concorde was being designed the design
teams were acknowledged.
Argument's aside...................
I respect the point that Albrect has quite clearly made.
Write History do not create it.......................DJZ 60.
Firstly ,I would like to stress that,the following is my own
personal opinion, delivered openly & without worrying what any
one think's of me etc.
This thread is about 'setting the record straight' on an
important part of Z history.
Albrect is passionate about the truth, as would be anybody
who has attempted to find out the origin's of happening's or
in this case factual credit where it is deserved.
Everything else is a deviation,which further marr's &
ridicules not only the car's that bring us together,but an overall
danger of the Z car's not being taken seriously,respected &
further taken for granted.
The saddest thing for me is,everything so obviously point's
in the direction of Japan,as regarding design,production & tell
tell sign's that this car is definately JAPANESE.
When man first put a foot on the moon,his name is credited.
when concorde was being designed the design
teams were acknowledged.
Argument's aside...................
I respect the point that Albrect has quite clearly made.
Write History do not create it.......................DJZ 60.
Ian Patmore
Well-Known Forum User
Right Ian wade in......And as for me personally, I am proud to own/drive/restore a first generation Z, I take an interest on everything Z related and that includes its sporting pedigree and how the first generation was conceptualized/built. I don't know everything Z related, so want to know the facts, not hearsay. I personnally regard Albrecht as one (of many) of the knowledgeable ones on this website. If anyone thinks I am wrong, well their intitled to their opinion, just as I am.
Ian
Ian
STEVE BURNS
Club Member
Hi Albrecht
Its my birthday today and I am felling fine towards all people today.
Just wonder if as a birthday present to me you would like to have a look at the quotes above.
Over the years I have tried in my own way to get the misinformation ( word chosen carefully) about Goertz and the Z (please don’t comment on my use of Z) changed and I feel as strongly as you on this.
I am proud to be part of the “totally useless UK Z Scene” for without it we would not have this forum as a resource to try and help change the myth of Goertz.
I am also proud to be instrumental in having Mr K voted in as the Z clubs president as opposed to Goertz back in the summer of 1997 after the club’s founder Eddie Miller sadly passed away.
This was before a lot of the truth regarding Goertz’s involvement (or lack of) in the design of the Z had become general knowledge.
Please give the Z Club some Credit for going against the popular belief at that time, seven years ago, and not voting in Goertz in as our President.
Also I am proud to be part of the main Z Club and its stand seven years ago.
God wouldn’t we have looked foolish if it had turned out Goertz had designed the bloody thing after putting our necks on the block
.
I will refrain from putting my hands around your neck to help you hold your breath (JOKE)as it is my happy day but please don’t say the club has not tried to change things.
And please be kind and no comments on errors that are in the post LOL
Oh before anyone says anything I'm not saying Mr K designed the car either ( just an afterthought to stop any comment on this) LOL
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
djz&ian...yes albricht is very knowledgable re datsun/nissan i'm not disputing that.
i think some of us are missing the point here.
whats the point in just talking who did what, lets see proof!
For this club to grow in my opinion we need to be better and have more accurate information to hand and not hearsay, after all just one persons voice is just that.
I have started the electrical thread to try and help others(and no im not saying im a guru but im willing to try and help with factual information AND I NORMALY EDIT IF I HAVE MADE A SPLELLING MISTAKE THAT I DIDN'T SPOT OR FOR AN H&S ISSUE FLAGGED UPTO ME) the club as i can see needs this type of input and if im wrong then please tell me as i would be more than happy to delete these posts.
I think in time i may find that i have an interest who did what but at the moment my first port of call is getting my car sorted like many others.
For what its worth i think we should all move forward now and start these progressions instead of bickering and casting aspersions upon others.
WELL THATS MY BIT SAID, WHAT YOU ALL SAY?
i think some of us are missing the point here.
whats the point in just talking who did what, lets see proof!
For this club to grow in my opinion we need to be better and have more accurate information to hand and not hearsay, after all just one persons voice is just that.
I have started the electrical thread to try and help others(and no im not saying im a guru but im willing to try and help with factual information AND I NORMALY EDIT IF I HAVE MADE A SPLELLING MISTAKE THAT I DIDN'T SPOT OR FOR AN H&S ISSUE FLAGGED UPTO ME) the club as i can see needs this type of input and if im wrong then please tell me as i would be more than happy to delete these posts.
I think in time i may find that i have an interest who did what but at the moment my first port of call is getting my car sorted like many others.
For what its worth i think we should all move forward now and start these progressions instead of bickering and casting aspersions upon others.
WELL THATS MY BIT SAID, WHAT YOU ALL SAY?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Hi Steve, and Happy Birthday.
I actually put a fair amount of thought into the words when I wrote them, and then read them through a few times before I hit the "Submit Post" button. I stand by them. I'm not going to edit or delete them. This stuff needs to be discussed. At the very least you might regard it as a useful opportunity to point out your side of the story.......
Hats off to you for your efforts Steve. I think anybody who has come into contact with the Club will have noticed the hard work that goes on in the background by people like yourself.
However, I feel I need to be cruel to be kind in some respects. The problem is that people see my comments as a personal attack on the faces representing the clubs, rather than the headless and faceless - and to an extent abstract - organisations themselves. Notice the way this thread started out as a critique of a magazine article that made serious historical errors, but soon turned into me trying to defend myself against "pomposity" and being asked to give "proof" to the contrary regarding Goertz. It makes it tough to stick your head above the parapet.
Also Steve, I note that your most wordy reply on this thread is in response to what you obviously see as an attack on the club ( and therefore, by implication, yourself ) rather than a defence of historical truth, the car itself and the people who really did design it. I note too that ( with a couple of honourable exceptions ) very little real reaction or comment to the article has been seen on this thread or on the Forum in general. Business as usual, then. People look at the thread in the same way that they rubberneck at a car crash. Almost nobody feels 'qualified' or confident enough to comment. "Who are these Japanese geezers he's going on about?......."
True. But, you'll probably call me pompous and churlish for suggesting that this was ( in 1997? - more than 25 years after the debut of the S30-series Z ) too little, too late. And to turn it on its head a little, I don't feel like congratulating anybody for not appointing Goertz, as the man's name should not have been in the frame in the first place. What's next, giving kiddies free Big Mac meals for not kicking over little old ladies?
If anybody's necks were on the block for daring to suggest that Goertz was not responsible for the car, then I have to ask who was holding the axe? Who were you scared of? Sorry, but it only means that the Club was in blissful ignorance before it had its Road-to-Damascus-style conversion. We are all victims of Goertz and his shameless self-promotion, and again I note that he is STILL quoted as an "Honourary Member" of the Classic Z Register.
I've tried to be tactful ( although you probably won't have noticed, LOL ) but feelings are bound to get hurt in some way or other I suppose. I hope that you appreciate that I am trying to be more of a catalyst to healthy debate than a seditionary. I find it extremely sad to see the "I don't give a damn who designed it" type of comments, as the same people often to be seen searching for advice and information from others who have done the hard work, and bought the books and manuals. To me, the history and background to the cars is all PART OF the story. Anyone who knows me well enough will be aware that I'm just as fanatical ( sad b*stard ) about part numbers as I am about the historical aspects. It's all part of the same thing for me.
Sorry to go on, but I'd like to throw a question up in the air about Mr. Katayama if I may. Why was he chosen for honourary office by the Z Club? Don't worry - I'm fully aware of who he is and what he achieved ( and indeed is still achieving ) as well as what he represents historically. I just find it odd that the hands on creators of ALL the Z cars ( S30 / S31, S130, Z31, Z32 & Z33 inclusive ) still don't even get a name-check.
Enjoy your birthday celebrations, Steve. Please don't let my comments spoil it for you. I'll drink a toast to your health tonight ( provided there are no big hands clamped around my windpipe
).Edited: VB code errors
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STEVE BURNS
Club Member
Hi Albrecht
read your reply and will digest it tommorrow and try to reply
But in the meantime hows the write up coming on that we discussed earlier in the year as listed below
31.01.04
31.01.04
31.01.04
22.07.04
any chance we can get this finalised no pressure but no use us talking amonst ourselves when we should be putting on a united front to the general motoring press
as my favorite saying
" if you don't ask you deny people the chance to tell you to eff off"
Chinese arrived got to go
read your reply and will digest it tommorrow and try to reply
But in the meantime hows the write up coming on that we discussed earlier in the year as listed below
31.01.04
Originally posted by STEVE BURNS
Hi Albrecht
as one of the more passionate posters on this subject
how about an edited version of my summary as you see it
in my view its no use some of us moaning about the press getting things wrong amounst our selves if we don't want to do any thing about it
so how about it fella how about some help on getting it all together don't have to put your name to the final article if your to shy to go public
31.01.04
31.01.04
28.02.04
Originally posted by STEVE BURNS
Hi Albrecht
hope you are back from your travels and just wondering how the write up is going as i know there are a couple of mag articles coming out soon and would be good to have an answer to any errors they print to hand to send off in an effort to get things right once and for all
pushy barstard arn't I
22.07.04
any chance we can get this finalised no pressure but no use us talking amonst ourselves when we should be putting on a united front to the general motoring press
as my favorite saying
" if you don't ask you deny people the chance to tell you to eff off"
Chinese arrived got to go
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Steve,
I was under the impression that something had already been written out by somebody else, and indeed had been used already?
Or do you indeed want more "verbal diarrhoea" from me?
You know you'll get my pro-Japanese bias in anything I write too, don't you?
And in the light of comments by grolls on this thread, I don't feel a lot of sympathy with my views here either.
grolls
Well-Known Forum User
im not going to post in here anymore as i feel im waisting my breath! i would sugest you go back and read all the posts again and then climb down from your perch and try and put a positve post that benifits those not so involved with the birth of the z. I think what you need to post is the true facts in your heart and not the whirlpool going on inside your brain!
STEVE BURNS
Club Member
Of course we want more from you other wise there was not much point of the “did he didn’t he” thread.
We need the truth so we can all work together to correct like you say 30 odd years of bullshit in the motoring press.
I don’t care how far the facts lean as long as they are the facts and would have thought that as the whole history is based in Japan the facts would be pro Japanese rather than anything else.
To me Russ has made a very valid point if all us oldens keep the stuff we know to ourselves what chance has the younger member got when they are running the club
Come on now Albrecht lets all work together and attempt to put right years of misinformation.
240z
Club Member
looks like I got to this thread late, but ...
I do appreciate the effort of anyone really getting stuck in and wanting to find information about the birth of these cars, it just seems a shame it didn't happen many years ago (and by the journalists in the first place, isn't it their job??) and so it could all be nipped in the bud. I think the language barrier may have been a big factor, and laziness to just get quick 'facts' together.
I can also see how frustrating it must be to go to all the effort and finding that some people don't really care... which after all they don't have to...
I just want to say I personally admire this kind of grit and enthusiasm that I feel a bit ashamed I do not have to quite the same degree, but am VERY interested all the same.. I am just waiting for the book
I do appreciate the effort of anyone really getting stuck in and wanting to find information about the birth of these cars, it just seems a shame it didn't happen many years ago (and by the journalists in the first place, isn't it their job??) and so it could all be nipped in the bud. I think the language barrier may have been a big factor, and laziness to just get quick 'facts' together.
I can also see how frustrating it must be to go to all the effort and finding that some people don't really care... which after all they don't have to...
I just want to say I personally admire this kind of grit and enthusiasm that I feel a bit ashamed I do not have to quite the same degree, but am VERY interested all the same.. I am just waiting for the book