Sean287
Well-Known Forum User
Don't know if this has been posted before, but quite enjoyable:
Nissan Datsun Z "Fairlady Z" [Full Car Documentary] - YouTube
Nissan Datsun Z "Fairlady Z" [Full Car Documentary] - YouTube
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Z car documentary
- Thread starter Sean287
- Start date
zedhead240
Well-Known Forum User
Really enjoyed that 
Yes I enjoyed it too, now I can spread the 'crock' !
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Rob,
You may well have enjoyed it, but what good does it do all of us ( as fans of the cars ) to have the content of that show accepted as 'fact'..?
I would have thought that we - again, as fans and owners of the cars - would be the best people to research, foster and curate the truth in the stories behind them. As far as I can see, that has to involve pointing out lies wherever and whenever they are repeated.
If we don't, then who will?
You may well have enjoyed it, but what good does it do all of us ( as fans of the cars ) to have the content of that show accepted as 'fact'..?
I would have thought that we - again, as fans and owners of the cars - would be the best people to research, foster and curate the truth in the stories behind them. As far as I can see, that has to involve pointing out lies wherever and whenever they are repeated.
If we don't, then who will?
But I don't know the lies 
Dale
Club Member
But I don't know the lies
I don't either. If only we knew someone who could once and for all put the record straight, even if it was just to us who could then 'spread the word' on his behalf.
And the 'search it yourself, the information is out there' argument is difficult for mere mortals as the very place anyone woud search for the answers is litttered with 'lies' or 'inorrect' information. What or who should we believe?.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
But I don't know the lies
Really? Are you saying that you couldn't spot even the most glaringly obvious claptrap in that "History" Channel show?
Anybody else? Does nobody have signs of indigestion after swallowing it whole?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
And the 'search it yourself, the information is out there' argument is difficult for mere mortals as the very place anyone woud search for the answers is litttered with 'lies' or 'inorrect' information. What or who should we believe?.
The truth is out there already though. Only a few days ago Steve put up a link to a Youtube video put up by a ( private ) Japanese enthusiast / historian, who put together a nice timeline of the S30-series Z's exterior styling development after consulting with members of the original team ( and especially Kumeo TAMURA ). Stuff like that is so much closer to the truth, and it's pretty much from the horse's mouth too. We've discussed Tamura san and his story on several English language forums, and I've been lucky enough to meet him too. So, it's out there if you want to look for it.
What I object to - perhaps as much as the documentary itself - is the fact that nobody seems to find fault in it. I could understand that if it was being shown to 'civilians', but when it gets put in front of ( what should be? ) Z enthusiasts and they can't recognise it for what it is...... I despair.
There's so much wrong with the documentary that it's hard to know where to start. But surely some here can spot the huge elephant traps it lays out? The whole premise ( "Saint Katayama sets up Nissan USA - creates Zee Car or maybe Goertz did a bit - it's 'Made For USA' - changes auto industry forever - Zee Car kills British sports cars & their manufacturers - Japan gets rich - Nissan gets rid of Saint Katayama and doesn't even say thanks.." ) is flawed. There are some nice quotes, but it's really just hackneyed garbage and egos are let to run away with themselves.
I'm prepared to discuss it in detail if anyone wants to defend any 'facts' presented in the documentary. Anyone?
Dale
Club Member
I'm not in the country so don't have suitable Internet connection to watch a video successfully but I'm sure I've probably seen it before. Something along the lines of that the in '69 came along a Japanese sports car designed purely for the Amercan market etc etc...?
I realise that the 'original designer/design team' question or 'statement' will be the biggest gripe, especially when coming from an American perspective, but the below video I quite enjoyed watching. Is this getting closer to the truth? It centres around Matsuo (who was the head of the design team?) and he talks about some designs that he developed. Was Tamura the prominent member of the team? I don't recall the whole details of the video.
[Youtube]T8Kp0itoUlY[/youtube]
I realise that the 'original designer/design team' question or 'statement' will be the biggest gripe, especially when coming from an American perspective, but the below video I quite enjoyed watching. Is this getting closer to the truth? It centres around Matsuo (who was the head of the design team?) and he talks about some designs that he developed. Was Tamura the prominent member of the team? I don't recall the whole details of the video.
[Youtube]T8Kp0itoUlY[/youtube]
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
It is perhaps even more pernicious than that, in that it almost completely ignores the rest of the world. For example, you'd be forgiven for believing that Nissan had never dabbled in exporting their wares before the 1958 Mobilgas Rally in Australia, but they were already in Australia and building up an important market presence there. The History Channel doco makes it sound like this was some kind of diversion before they rolled their sleeves up to go to the USA. As I said, it's a USA-centric point of view which is not historically correct.
Dale said:
That's another case-in-point of USA-centric thinking, and of Matsuo san ( somebody I consider a friend, actually... ) getting somewhat ahead of himself with all this. When videos like that put him on the spot, he will of course - like anyone - try to live up to what is expected of him.
Matsuo san was the 'Chief Designer' on the S30-series Z project. That is to say that he was a chief among designers. His main job was - perhaps - best described as coordinating the many elements, outside companies and individuals who were part of the process. A difficult task.
Tamura san was not really a prominent member of the team, but he ended up with his own hand perhaps closest to the final lines of the S30-series Z's exterior styling. That's important, but it doesn't make him solely responsible for anything except ( and that's a big 'except' .... ) the final lines of the car. He was on the end of a process that was arguably more a case of refining the work of Fumio YOSHIDA, and has acknowledged that fact. Since the filming of the video you posted, Matsuo san and Tamura san ( for many years on non-speaking terms ) got together and made their peace. Things are clearer now. For me, the 'styling' of the S30-series Z is important, and we spend a lot of time discussing that, but it's only one aspect of the package and I have as much respect for the engineers as the stylists. There were many tens if not hundreds of people who were active and important participants in this story. The S30-series Z was the product of many hands and minds.
So all the more frustration to see the History Channel sucking up to a salesman who claims to be its sole 'Father', and to see the 'Z Community' ( whatever that is ) not only swallow that whole, but applaud it and ask for seconds.
Dale
Club Member
I can appreciate that, in fact I remember feeling that there some leading questions in the video and there was plenty more involved than what was touched on.
That makes complete sense too. I doubt there are many (and much more simpler) commercial products in the world that have not had many people involved in its conception and final build, whether it be a box of cornflakes or a space shuttle. There are artists, there are engineers, there are marketeers and many people in between, so for anyone to take sole credit for a product, or worse still a consumer (or fan) to believe that one person is responsible for that product is a touch on the nieve side.
I think I'm quite artistic. I think I could probably knock up a nice design for a car, but unfortunately I'm not a character from Weird Science!
Thanks for that post Alan, great info! Are there any other major misconception we should be wary of? We know that Nissan didn't 'do it' for America, and we know who 'didn't' design, or soley design our beloved S30. Anything else we are wrong to believe?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Quite so, and yet it seems that all people want to do is go looking for a sole person, a name that they can pin the "design" on. As though creating a car ( a whole series of cars, at launch ) is just a matter of knocking up a few sketches.
That's one of the reasons we had the Goertz-as-designer story for so long. The History Channel doco mentions Goertz ( why?! ) and gets dates and his role at Nissan wrong ( he wasn't contracted to design cars... ). At the end of the History Channel doco they talk about Katayama, and the "240 Zee" being "his creation". This is complete and utter nonsense.
Dale said:
Well, with regard to the History Channel doco specifically, I'd just say that almost anything that's written solely from an American point of view is always going to be misleading. Therefore we should be wary.
For example ( and another one of those things that reveals a very different story when you do a little digging ) the voiceover says "On October 22nd 1969, the Datsun 240Z made its debut in the United States". A layman could be forgiven for believing that this was the car's WORLD debut, and that it was being shown to the general public, but in fact it was neither. The real debut - of the whole S30-series Z range ( ie, both domestic and export models ) was at the 1969 Tokyo Motor Show, which ran from 24th October to 6th November. Over 1.5 million visitors attended the show. I created a thread on the classiczcars.com forum dedicated to it if you are interested: 24th October 1969 - The S30-series Z public debut.
The American 'debut' was actually more akin to what's known is some circles as a 'Trunk Show'. It was hardly 'International' and it wasn't very 'Public' either. If an invite-only press and 'VIP' junket in a hotel can be described as an 'International Debut' then I'd point to the Japanese ( ahem... International ) press preview of the S30-series Z range at Nissan's Ginza, Tokyo head office and showroom, which took place on the 18th of October. I think that trumps anything in NY or LA.
But to my mind at least, the Public and International debut was in Japan anyway. So a bald, quite specific and seemingly accurate 'fact' from the voiceover, when looked at with a little more scrutiny, throws up another scenario entirely. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
There are any number of mistakes / errors / misleading 'facts' in the History Channel doco, and unfortunately it gets used as reference material for new articles / shows. Sources like these act like a Typhoid-infected well. In the end it becomes hard to refute the errors and untruths simply because they have been repeated and reinforced so many times.
As I've said, if we don't try to get it right - then who will...?