Induction yes, forced well hardly
I have said it before, if you actually measured the pressure induced by going 120mph and an air pipe out of the front it would amount to no more than a few millibars.
Back to the original question
-
The Z Club relies on the support of it's paid members - join the club or renew your membership here.
Nitrous Oxide, is the car still NA, Forced induction or something else:- Debate
- Thread starter SKiddell
- Start date
Induction yes, forced well hardly
I have said it before, if you actually measured the pressure induced by going 120mph and an air pipe out of the front it would amount to no more than a few millibars.
Back to the original question
1. Why not
2. Nothing to do with the original question my friend
3. Nice to see you back
260ZG
Club Member
I thought I would have a look at the Motor Sport Association Blue Book to see what they say.
Their definition of forced induction is :-
[FONT="]"Any device capable of augmenting atmospheric pressure to increase the induction of air or air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber. (Superchargers, Turbochargers etc.) Any means of artificially reducing induction air temperature (eg packing with solid CO2, etc) is prohibited. Ram effects entirely due to the forward motion of the vehicle or tuning of induction or exhaust pipe length are not included within this definition.[/FONT]"
NB this is from 2010 book as my 2011 is in the car from where I was working last weekend and I can't be ***** to go outside and get it
The blue book does have a section for Drag racing but as usual it is as clear as mud.
It does also say under the general fuel rules for section S ( Sprints, Hill Climbs and Drag Racing) that "only air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant."
It seems from this that although they may not classify NO2 as forced induction it may not be allowed as it reduces charge temperature.
I would say though that the addition of NO2 would mean that it is not Normally Aspirated. If you are injecting gas under pressure then you must be raising intake pressure above atmospheric surely?
It is an interesting point and as I am seeing several MSA technical people in a couple of weeks I will raise the question and get their views on it.
It may not be completely relevant as Drag Racing is not all under their jurisdiction but could be interesting.
I am also intested about the bit on induction air cooling as I am not sure how it relates to cars with inter coolers.
PS also answers Sean's query about front mounted air cleaners ( I think)
Their definition of forced induction is :-
[FONT="]"Any device capable of augmenting atmospheric pressure to increase the induction of air or air/fuel mixture into the combustion chamber. (Superchargers, Turbochargers etc.) Any means of artificially reducing induction air temperature (eg packing with solid CO2, etc) is prohibited. Ram effects entirely due to the forward motion of the vehicle or tuning of induction or exhaust pipe length are not included within this definition.[/FONT]"
NB this is from 2010 book as my 2011 is in the car from where I was working last weekend and I can't be ***** to go outside and get it
The blue book does have a section for Drag racing but as usual it is as clear as mud.
It does also say under the general fuel rules for section S ( Sprints, Hill Climbs and Drag Racing) that "only air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant."
It seems from this that although they may not classify NO2 as forced induction it may not be allowed as it reduces charge temperature.
I would say though that the addition of NO2 would mean that it is not Normally Aspirated. If you are injecting gas under pressure then you must be raising intake pressure above atmospheric surely?
It is an interesting point and as I am seeing several MSA technical people in a couple of weeks I will raise the question and get their views on it.
It may not be completely relevant as Drag Racing is not all under their jurisdiction but could be interesting.
I am also intested about the bit on induction air cooling as I am not sure how it relates to cars with inter coolers.
PS also answers Sean's query about front mounted air cleaners ( I think
)
Last edited by a moderator:
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Thanks - interesting subject which I felt raised more questions than your original :
Feeding (if only a little) induced cold air gives an advantage over a standard engines' under-bonnet air-intake....so if the air was artificially cooled would this still count as N/A ?...............which was what the orginal question was about
GIO doesn't seem to think so .....bye-bye.
Gio
Well-Known Forum User
Actually, Roger, I agree with SKiddellGIO doesn't seem to think so .....bye-bye.
And in an effort to follow the rulesSkiddell said:
I looked at the MSA site (actually, each morning I look at the real site 'cos I pass it on the way to work) and found a link to their Drag rules which I think only cover one discipline ProMod.
So MSA for this one type of motorsport seem to think the effect of N2O on race fuel is equivalent to forced induction on methanol.
Stretching my tech beyond its limit, if methanol is more energetic than unleaded race fuel, then this implies MSA thinks N2O is MORE effective than the supercharging version of FI.
Be interesting to see what 260Zs MSA contacts think.
As a sidebar on the Ram air effects not defined as FI by the MSA, and mentioned by Roger / SKiddell, we introduced several Kawasakis with ram-air intakes ZZR-1100 was one from memory.
And certainly this did have an effect. The rumour was that it allowed us to break the then voluntary horsepower limit (because the bikes were supposed to develop more hp when the airbox was "pressurised" by the ram air FI).However, this article has a different technical rationale which appears at least a reasoned argument and therefore falls within the spirit of this thread even if not specifically answering the original question.
Thanks - interesting subject which I felt raised more questions than your original :
Feeding (if only a little) induced cold air gives an advantage over a standard engines' under-bonnet air-intake....so if the air was artificially cooled would this still count as N/A ?...............which was what the orginal question was about
GIO doesn't seem to think so .....bye-bye.
Ahhh your not going all airboxy on me are you, we all know were that one ends up.
Anyway
So is it early to sum up or can we say that an NA car with nitrous is definitely no longer an NA car ?
Nitrous oxide mist sprayed into the induction of an engine reduces the amount of space available for atmospheric air to enter. The up shot is that all the normal or natural 79% nitrogen/trace gases cannot enter. It is the exclusion of the inert gas and introduction of extra oxygen that gives the increased potential output. So why not call it an atmospherically ventilated reduced inert gas increased oxygen induction system.
Also in an atmospherically ventilated reduced inert gas increased oxygen induction system there is no rise in temperature or reduced density due to precompression (turbo or super charging). But there is a powerful intercooling effect increasing charge density far better than any mechanical heat exchanger (intercooler). It is the thermodynamic Joule–Thomson process the same system is used to blast freeze your favourate vegitables. So now you have a Supper Cooled Atmospherically Ventilated Reduced Inert Gas Increased Oxygen Induction System. Works for me!!!
In comparison there is no way that forced induction can remove inert gas so at 1 bar boost you are putting twice as much inert gas in with the extra oxygen. On top of this forced induction (compressing a gas) increases its temperature reducing its density. This can be mitigated to some extent by intercooling but its not going to be 100% efficient. With this system you have no chance of removing any of the 79% dead cylinder volume filled with nitrogen, argon and other trace gasses. Easy to see why the use of methanol fuel in a turbo is required to get anywhere near a petrol fuelled nitrous oxide atmospherically ventilated engine.
Also in an atmospherically ventilated reduced inert gas increased oxygen induction system there is no rise in temperature or reduced density due to precompression (turbo or super charging). But there is a powerful intercooling effect increasing charge density far better than any mechanical heat exchanger (intercooler). It is the thermodynamic Joule–Thomson process the same system is used to blast freeze your favourate vegitables. So now you have a Supper Cooled Atmospherically Ventilated Reduced Inert Gas Increased Oxygen Induction System. Works for me!!!
In comparison there is no way that forced induction can remove inert gas so at 1 bar boost you are putting twice as much inert gas in with the extra oxygen. On top of this forced induction (compressing a gas) increases its temperature reducing its density. This can be mitigated to some extent by intercooling but its not going to be 100% efficient. With this system you have no chance of removing any of the 79% dead cylinder volume filled with nitrogen, argon and other trace gasses. Easy to see why the use of methanol fuel in a turbo is required to get anywhere near a petrol fuelled nitrous oxide atmospherically ventilated engine.
Personally I don't think NOS should be classified as part of an engine's nature, unlike a turbo or supercharger which runs all the time with NOS you get a 10/20/30 seconds boost (like the KERS in F1?)
However if you're talking during the actual action (like a drag race, where NOS could be used for the entire event) then I think it would depend on exactly how it works. If the N2O is (for example) sprayed into the front of the airbox and thus has little effect of the air pressure then it's still naturally aspirated, however if the N2O does go into the cylinders at a higher pressure it would be some sort of forced induction.
However if you're talking during the actual action (like a drag race, where NOS could be used for the entire event) then I think it would depend on exactly how it works. If the N2O is (for example) sprayed into the front of the airbox and thus has little effect of the air pressure then it's still naturally aspirated, however if the N2O does go into the cylinders at a higher pressure it would be some sort of forced induction.