newbie with some 260 zx questions

[michael1703]

p.s. the datsun is up to roughly £210 of work so far, there was time spent stripping before the welding and i had a job getting the tank out and ive took the seats and trim out and the roof gutter chrome was a pig to remove

 

[JakTheRuby]

Keep the pics coming bud. It's a great job you're doing. My dad and brother both do the same thing (both engineering backgrounds, both restore old vehicles incl. classic tractors & bikes) and they just get it done where most would not bother. I love it because you're showing us the pieces you're cutting too before you start welding. Awesome!

 

[samuri-240]

What a craftsman I really like what I see already, keep us posted. Shame your so far down south, would like someone with your skills to work on my mini pickup when I find it. Its a long story lets just say I love 240z's & mini pickups.

 

[Albrecht]

If i were to linish both sides of the repair and paint it, i could make it look as though there is no join, how is that patchy if the metal is of the same thickness and quality as the metal it replaced?

OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here........

I see a lot of people cheering this process on. I don't want to damn your metalworking skills or insult you in any way, but I want to ask those people who are cheering you on if they would buy such a car once it is 'finished'. And - as a secondary question to that - whether they would be happy if they bought such a car with no prior knowledge of the parlous state that it once found itself in, or the process that it had been through in order to make it roadworthy once more? Would they trust any assessment or valuation ( for insurance, or other reason ) that had been made on the car after it had been painted? How would such an assessment or valuation have been arrived at if the repairs had been hidden? Would they not be surprised and dismayed ( to say the least ) if they found out about these repairs having bought the car without knowledge of them?

Maybe cars that have required such comprehensive and radical repairs are OK as long as they stay in the hands of an owner that knows all about them. Once they get back out into the free market, and change hands a few times, I think the situation will become quite different. I can't see how such a car can be worth as much - both monetarily and intrinsically - as one that has not been repaired in this way.

The chassis rails have rotten areas,so should i be expected to remove the whole chassis rail and weld a whole new one in? A new chassis rail wouldnt look any different or be any stronger than the repair i will make, so why replace it fully? that would be a lot of work for no gain and would cause the chassis to twist

Basically - yes, I think you should be replacing the whole chassis rails. I can't believe that a car showing such evidence of rust damage will have chassis rails that are not rusty in the areas that you are not able to inspect. Unless you have used an endoscope on them I can't see how you can be sure that the box sections up near the firewall joins are not rusted. Surely you can't say categorically that they are not? Half of the rust in these monocoque / unibody type cars is in closed-off sections that are almost impossible to inspect without opening them up. Repair sections 'let-in' to such structural members are most likely going to be stronger than the areas surrounding them.........

...........if this car changes hands over the years and finds an owner who wants it fully restored, then that can still happen, you lot had already written this car off after a few photos

I'm afraid it's still pretty much "written off" in my mind. Like W.C Fields's elephant, it might make interesting viewing - but I wouldn't want to own it........

 

[vpulsar]

If it where me I'd be quite happy to own a car repaired in this manner, What you've said makes absolutely no sense whats so ever, If we go by what you've said above then half the classic cars on the road are as you say write offs, I've seen cars in far worse condition being repaired in this way, In fact Classic car is restoring one of the ropeiest MK2 jags I think I've ever seen, And if that can be done and is strong enough to take it's place back on the roads and to have value I don't see your problem with Michael's repairs.




Rob

 

[260Z TT]

I think Michael is doing a brilliant job and should be highly commended for his work!
Is he not keeping another of a dying breed on the road?
What happens when all the used parts supply dries up too. Not everyone is fortunate to have the contacts like you have in Japan, Alan, or the funds that may be incurred from such a place!
When might we see one of your cars out again Alan, or are you saving it for Z register meetings only!

 

[Albrecht]

If it where me I'd be quite happy to own a car repaired in this manner.........

Really? I have a couple of questions for you then: How much would you be prepared to pay for it, and would you be A. shocked / surprised / upset, or B. very happy / reassured / relieved to find such repairs under the paint and trim of a car that you had recently purchased?

I'll be very interested to hear your answers - and the answers of the others who are making positive noises on this thread. I've got a strong hunch that - just like me - they wouldn't want to take the elephant home from the zoo..........

What you've said makes absolutely no sense whats so ever, If we go by what you've said above then half the classic cars on the road are as you say write offs......

Of course I'm not talking about 'write offs' in the insurance business sense of "vehicles that are uneconomical or impractical to repair" ( hang on though - maybe that's not so far from what I'm talking about........ ). What I'm saying is that - judging from what I've seen so far - I have 'written off' this car in my mind as being something I would not want any of my friends or acquaintances to buy or drive around in. Heaven forbid that anyone would buy it thinking that they were buying a sound and relatively unmessed-with example of an RS30.

And you are probably right; If half the 'classic' cars on the road today have been repaired like this one ( and the word "restored" is absolutely NOT appropriate in this case ) then I would not want to own any of them either.

The first post on this thread mentions that "8 inches" of one of the front chassis rails is rusted out, and in a later post he says that he's going to be 'patching' this as a full chassis rail replacement will be "... a lot of work for no gain, and would cause the chassis to twist." All I can say to that is . Good reproduction chassis rail replacements ARE available, and are WELL worth fitting to a car that needs them. The chassis won't "twist" if the repair is carried out properly ( preferably on a jig ) and frankly if the chassis rails are rusted in sections 8 inches long then I can't imagine that the air tubes and rad support panel will have escaped untouched. 'Cosmetic' areas are one thing, but compromise on the structural areas of the car ( and that includes the scuttle, roof and rear quarters on an S30-series Z ) should not be encouraged, let alone cheered along....

I think Michael is doing a brilliant job and should be highly commended for his work!
Is he not keeping another of a dying breed on the road?
What happens when all the used parts supply dries up too.

Apparently, Dr Frankenstein thought he was doing humanity a service when he created his 'monster' out of left-overs.........

Not everyone is fortunate to have the contacts like you have in Japan, Alan, or the funds that may be incurred from such a place!

What have my "contacts in Japan" ( eh????!! ) got to do with this? Parts ( especially panels ) are in short supply in Japan too, and I certainly don't have an unlimited pocketful of funds to spend on my own cars ( despite occasionally being described as a "rich southern tw@t" by select members of the 'Cheshire Plains' crowd ). I have to make-do-and-mend just like all the rest of us do - but I would NOT recommend that a car be repaired in this fashion. I'd be looking for complete body panels / sections ( even if from a donor car ) and complete new replacement chassis rails & floors.

When might we see one of your cars out again Alan, or are you saving it for Z register meetings only!

If you buy next month's Classic & Sports Car magazine - published on 5th March - you will hopefully see one of my cars featured ( if it doesn't get pushed to the back of the queue again ). Other than that you'll have to come and take a peep into my garages. And in my loft .......

You are unlikely to see one of my cars at a Classic Z Register meeting as I have not been a member for some years now. Much to their relief I'm sure.

 

[vpulsar]

Really? I have a couple of questions for you then: How much would you be prepared to pay for it, and would you be A. shocked / surprised / upset, or B. very happy / reassured / relieved to find such repairs under the paint and trim of a car that you had recently purchased?

I would have to vote B I'm afraid mate, As long as all the repairs where carried out in the manner they have been so far I don't see the problem, As long as repairs are welded well I don't mind seeing an honest repair, Also if I happened to find such repairs on a car I had purchased then I'd be happy enough, These cars are over 30 years old now and I would be very surprised not to find at least some welding repairs on a car of this age, I'm also not interested in a mint perfect 260 which I might want to trailer to and from events while bathing in the glory of owning such a perfect but completely unusable car.

I prefer a car with some honest repairs that I can actually use for track and drag days, And if it gets bashed I'll repair the bugger again, But I understand that it's horses for causes and some people like spending their whole lives laying on their backs with a tooth brush and tin of polish, But it's not for me I'm afraid as is mag features which hold zero interest for me .




Rob

 

[Mr Ex]

WELL! having studied the pics I wouldn't buy a car in that state, I would look around a bit longer to find something more solid up top. It's ok just replacing wings,arches sills,chassis rails,a floor pan, door bottoms & air tubes but when it's like that on top, I'd say NO. BUT! if I'd owned the car for a long time & neglected it then I would view it in a different light & have it patched up.

 

[260Z TT]

Not dissing you at all Alan, just think that if at all possible, ALL Z's should be saved rather than being scrapped! Not sure who has been calling you a rich southern tw-t from up here(not me!), but I too originate from Brighton.
I hope your car does get featured soon mate, been far too long since I last saw it.
If my car ever needed any panelwork again, I too would like to fit whole panels, if they were available!
Have owned it for the last 18 years so far and hope to for many more yet.

Mark.

 

[240zchevyv8]

just like to say that regardless of what my opions were on the issue of whether or not this car was worth saving, the 240z i restored makes micheals 260 look brand new, mine was as rotten as a pear and it looked and drove beautiful when finished, but was still a rust free patch work quilt when completed, but looking at the quality of your work i can see that this car will be very nice and straight once completed so i say good on you and keep up the good work and more photos would be great regards heath

 

[Albrecht]

I would have to vote B I'm afraid mate.........

Interesting, but you didn't answer the rest of the question. How much would you be prepared to pay? Quite a lot less than you would for an un-welded, un-rusty example I should think - no?

These cars are over 30 years old now and I would be very surprised not to find at least some welding repairs on a car of this age......

Yes of course, but the car we are discussing here has gone far, far beyond the stage of "some welding repairs" - hasn't it? So too - by all accounts in your thread on the subject - had your first 260Z ( the bronze one ), hadn't it?

I'm also not interested in a mint perfect 260 which I might want to trailer to and from events while bathing in the glory of owning such a perfect but completely unusable car.

Do you know of any "mint perfect" S30-series Z car that are trailered to-and-from events in the UK?

I don't.

I prefer a car with some honest repairs that I can actually use for track and drag days, And if it gets bashed I'll repair the bugger again, But I understand that it's horses for causes and some people like spending their whole lives laying on their backs with a tooth brush and tin of polish, But it's not for me I'm afraid as is mag features which hold zero interest for me .

Likewise, do you actually know of any S30-series Zs in the UK who's owners "spend their whole lives laying on their backs with a tooth brush and tin of polish.."? Again, I don't. Certainly none of my cars are like that.

As for magazine features - I have a hunch that you'd be flattered to at least be asked, despite your professed lack of interest. The features are about the cars after all - so looking at a car in a magazine feature is effectively little different than looking at one on a web forum like this, is it?

I have to confess that I've turned down more requests than I've accepted. It depends on the magazine and the journalist, and whether you think they will do the car justice or not. I'm certainly not worried about getting any of my cars wet, dirty or stone damaged.....

 

[vpulsar]

Interesting, but you didn't answer the rest of the question. How much would you be prepared to pay? Quite a lot less than you would for an un-welded, un-rusty example I should think - no?

Clearly an unmolested rust free example is always going to sell for a premium that is just common sense, But if I had such a car I wouldn't really want to use it as hard as I plan to use mine once finished, I purposely looked for a car that wasn't perfect because I may rip it apart in a few years to do an engine swap of some kind.

As far as how much I'd be willing to pay goes it would depend on how well I thought it had been repaired, Every car is different so it would be impossible to comment on what I'd would be willing to pay.

When I commented about trailered cars and highly polished museum pieces I wasn't pointing the finger at anybody on here it was just a general tongue in cheek dig at such people who seem to populate the classic car scene .

Same goes for magazine features, I don't know anything about you or your cars so I wasn't even aware that you had been in any until I read this thread, I was asked about putting my pulsar in once or twice but told them to bugger off because I have no interest at all.

Anyway back on topic keep the pictures coming Michael .



Rob

 

[Mr.G]

That's gorgeous Alan!

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Just a few points:

What an interesting Thread and up to now people are open minded and expressing their views constructively . This is what Forums are all about.

I stand by my original comments in post 15.

An observation - You have metalworking skill and shown us a bit of what you can do and I think you are going to continue no matter what people say.

My experinces/views - My 240Z was bought with a full MoT for £3k and I ran it for 2 years before I took it off the road to rebuild the engine. I decided to do some structural work at the same time - it went back on the road 4.5 years later! Ok I did the work (including mechanicals) in my spare time but there was still a hell of a lot of bodywork to do and with respect it looked a lot better than your car does. If I was to do the cosmetic work to get it looking A1 it would be off the road for a lot longer too.

Like you I did all my own fabrication and welding (gas) and I also sprayed the engine bay. I butt-welded the inner wing sections but overlapped floor sections. I didn't buy any panels and so the chassis repair cost me nothing apart from gas and rods. So it can be done! Unlike you I am able to stick at one job and have the ability to just chug along - thank goodness, I needed it.

When I come to sell my car I will explain everything to any prospective buyer, hence why I'm being 'open' here. My car is a far cry from an imported solid, original example with nice rust-free panels. Albrecht is absolutely right in what he says, the value of a patched up car is far less than a lightly restored one.

Some people on here have said to you 'well done, keep it on the road' but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't buy it when it's finished.

I kept my car on the road and I get a tremendous amount of fun and satisfaction from it, however it is a trackday car and not a 'show car'. But it is better than some I've seen with shiny paint and no chassis!

In summary - I wouldn't take my route again, it is too labour intensive and at the end of the day the car is still a 'patched-up' car. I think however that you do intend to continue so may I suggest that you focus first on the chassis/structure - anything else is wasted until that is sorted. Then if you get passed that major stage spend time on the outer panels.

Good Luck.