HybridZ

[Albrecht]

You can find a nice 432 for the £25,000 figure I quoted, but £30,000 would find you an even better one.

Last genuine 432R that changed hands ( that I know about - they change hands quietly between collectors ) fetched over £45,000. You have to take these cars on a case-by-case basis, as very few of them are exactly alike.

432 typical weight = 1040kg
432R typical weight = 960kg

And remember that the 432R came with the big 100 litre fuel tank. The lighter weight obviously helps, but filling that 100 litre tank to the brim sure slows them down! But they had to have it. Without it they would not have been able to homologate the race cars for the longer races......

 

[SeanDezart]

Count, I know that the 432 and 43R were S30s, I'm just gaining typing time by not stating such - sorry to you and everyone else if I misled !
Still, you're not making this easy either - quote"As I mentioned before, the S20 engined cars ( the 432 and 432R )" unquote !

So we have S30 cars with S20 engines !

I also don't imply that because they were produced in small numbers, that the 432 and 432R were 'failures' - I never said anything like that, YOU brought up the word 'failure' - is that how YOU sub-conciously see them ? I don't !

Was the filled to the brim 432R fuel tank giving the car a very good compromise on the weight distribution, especially if it had been lightened for exactly that purpose ? ie the car designed to balance well with a larger fuel load ?

Real shame there aren't more 'replicas' being built or on peoples' project lists, I know of someone who wants to do an A550, don't you ?

 

[SeanDezart]

And were the L series and S20 engines the only ones for which the S30 was developed ?

I still (mildly) insist that the L series engined racing grabbed the worldwide headlines and helped sell the cars, looks and price helped sure but when people see/read about a car doing so well, itreinforces the sports image !
Yeah I know the Japanese home market boosting image and how important it was and is and that the home racing results were VERY important to Nissan.

Are you seriously saying that the S30 was designed for racing ? Or that it was quickly seen as a good car with which to race ?

 

[240z]

Excellent info thank you! - that is quite a weight saving!
And how does that relate to our uk L24 engined 240z?

 

[Black Bug]

Thanks for the info good Sir Count! Sounds like the S20 engine was pretty state of the art for the time, most impressive indeed!

Cheers,
Rob

 

[SeanDezart]

That' the point, the car therefore was designed for these two engines and the 432 was state of the art at the time.
Now, if one puts in a Supra/300TT/Skyline engine(modern state of the art) in an S30 it's no longer a Z ! V8s are another thing !!

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by SeanDezart
Still, you're not making this easy either - quote"As I mentioned before, the S20 engined cars ( the 432 and 432R )" unquote !

So we have S30 cars with S20 engines !

That's right. What's wrong with that? S30-series Z cars with S20 engines, and S30-series Z cars with L-series engines. Brothers and sisters, not dads and daughters or uncles and nephews! Its suffixes and prefixes that tell the details, but the full codes would be too laborious to write out every time. That's why the Factory used 'PZ', 'PZR', 'Z', 'ZS', 'HZS', 'HZL', 'HZG' etc etc to identify them internally. Its a shame they never 'exported' this method, as it would make it all a lot easier.

Originally posted by SeanDezart
I also don't imply that because they were produced in small numbers, that the 432 and 432R were 'failures' - I never said anything like that, YOU brought up the word 'failure' - is that how YOU sub-conciously see them ? I don't !

I thought you were implying 'failure'. Like damning them with faint praise. I don't want you to attach any received wisdom to the epitaph of these cars. People who have driven them will know what I am talking about. Success or perceived lack of success in sales should not dictate whether a car is a dynamic, stylistic and engineering success. Its that old Big Mac analogy. Big Macs must be excellent food because they sell so well. Lobster Thermidore must be rubbish because it can't keep up with the Big Mac.

And you don't want to know what's in my subconscious, believe me!

Originally posted by SeanDezart
Was the filled to the brim 432R fuel tank giving the car a very good compromise on the weight distribution, especially if it had been lightened for exactly that purpose ? ie the car designed to balance well with a larger fuel load ?

I see no way that they could balance the difference between almost empty and almost full on a 100 litre tank. The truth is that they HAD to have the 100 litre tank for the longer races in Japan, so it was always going to be a compromise. The Works rally cars also used a version of the 432R homologated tank, and an even bigger rear-filling 110 and 120 litre version was phased in for the 240ZR.
I don't think weight distribution was as much a priority as overall weight loss. Making a production car into a race car at that time ( as now ) was always going to be a compromise in some areas.

Originally posted by SeanDezart
Real shame there aren't more 'replicas' being built or on peoples' project lists, I know of someone who wants to do an A550, don't you ?

I agree. It seems to me that people prefer to try and make something to *their* tastes, and then find that within a couple of years ( or even before the car is finished ) they have already changed their tastes, or that current automotive 'fashion' has moved on.

An A550 replica really ought to have a Yamaha engine, don't you think?

 

[SeanDezart]

What's the nearest looking Yamaha engine then ? It would, after all be a replica car !

 

[symon260z]

Hi Sean and the Count,

It seems that I ´m getting drawn into this thread. Firstly I completely understand your ideas that a Z should have an originalish engine. I bought my 260Z as I wanted a 1970´s supercar with its good points and faillings. Any mods that I´ll do to it will be fairly period so that at the most I will enjoy 1970s tuning. My R32 GTR is completely different but I really love it even if the brakes are c**p. Apart fron the brakes I can´t fault it. I´m working away on my Silvia and I will restore as original as possible and the only mods will be period improvements to make the car more usable so that I gets used regularly.

What we should be doing is enjoying a car for what it is not what we could make it to be. Frankly I find the idea of stuffing a heavy V8 or a RB26 DETT in a Z ( sorry Count a S30 ) is so over the top that it would take away the lovely cornering posture of the car. It is such a wonderful country lane and motorway eater that I cannot understand why you somebody would want to bugger it up. With the R32 it is really the same except you are travelling a lot faster but with the same " I´m really enjoying this" factor. I hope the Silvia does the same in a 1960´s manner.

Ok there my opinion for what it may be worth !

Count - What engine really should be in a A550X ?


Symon

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by symon260z
Count - What engine really should be in a A550X ?

Symon

Hi Symon,

Well, for a true 'replica' its gotta be a proper Yamaha 'YX80' 2 litre twin cam four-banger. Not a lot of them on planet Earth though, I reckon

How about a Facel Vega Facellia engine? Yamaha had a good look at this ( and the MGA Twin Cam ) before building the YX80. But anyone building an A550X replica might be put off by the fact that the original had a little four pot in it.

Maybe saw two pots off a Supra engine and use what's left. That's Yamaha designed isn't it?

Here's a pic of the YX80. Sorry for the bad quality. Not a lot of photos of these floating around, so we have to be grateful for what we can find.......

 

[symon260z]

Hi Albrecht,

Yes it really is a let down that such a foward looking car has just 4 cylinders. The car should have "James Bond" performance to go with the looks ! Possibly a supercharged U 20 could do the trick!

Symon

 

[SeanDezart]

Hold on, this was a prototype so almost any engine might do !
Athough let's not get into a search for power race, huh ?
I thought it was a six in line and have been racking my brains to think of an engine which could be adapted, best I came up with was an Aston Martin or Jag from the DB 5/6, E-Type !

Now, if it's a four, why not an Alfa or perhaps better, a Celica 2 litre, twin cam ? Or a C110 SKyline motor ?
What's a U20 engine ?

 

[symon260z]

Hi Sean,
The idea of plonking a non Nissan motor into an A550X replica really is not what it is about. As the motor suggested by Albrecht is probably a non starter due to availibility problems and cost, I would have to use some thing that was at least available or could have been available at the time to the builders. The U20 motor was used in the 2000 Fairlady roadster with 130 or 150 bhp ! With a period supercharger 185 - 190 bhp would be possible so at the least the car would go reasonably well.


Symon

 

[zedhead260]

Originally posted by Albrecht
But anyone building an A550X replica might be put off by the fact that the original had a little four pot in it.

Maybe saw two pots off a Supra engine and use what's left. That's Yamaha designed isn't it?

The 3M engine found in the Toyota 2000GT was designed by Yamaha. Now, although not related, the 2TG or 18RG Toyota unit from (as you say Sean) an early Celica would certainly look the part. The 2 litre 18RG developed 145bhp in its peak. FYI it's a twin overhead cam crossflow unit with twin side draught 40mm Solex and very tuneable without the need for forced induction.

 

[zedhead260]

 

[ZHead]

Originally posted by symon260z

What we should be doing is enjoying a car for what it is not what we could make it to be. Frankly I find the idea of stuffing a heavy V8 or a RB26 DETT in a Z ( sorry Count a S30 ) is so over the top that it would take away the lovely cornering posture of the car.

What we REALLY should be doing is enjoying the driving experience we personally want, that will differ for all of us from historically acurate reconstruction, through concours show car, through rally cars, through slightly modded GT to dragster.

I am curious though, this conversion has been done 1000 times in the States, there is documented evidence of build after build including weight information to show which parts to change to get back to 50/50 balance or thereabouts. How many people that take the stance "A V8 is too heavy" have actually been in a V8 equipped car, particularly a modern one ? How much experience and knowledge sits behind the non believers' pointing fingers ? If the argument was " it is a shame to do anything non standard to a classic" I could understand but it isn't. People will change brakes and suspension (were Wilwood four pot calipers and vented discs and Tokico coil overs period ?), transplant 280 engines into a 240 and have them bored out, change the wheels and tyres for modern ones etc etc but a V8 ........... I can hear the cries of "burn witch" coming right out of my screen.

Granted, I have never driven one, though Clive Standish kindly took me out in his Rover engined car in the eighties but I have faith in the experience, knowledge and conviction of many people that have done this before, plus the fact it is an interesting and exciting project albeit good or bad. We will never truly know until we have done something.

I love the way the cars drive with an L Series engine, just want more grunt - the objective (we will see if it is truly achievable) is to balance the car as close to the original as possible, play with the suspension and have it properly set up on corner weight scales and hang on for dear life.

In actual fact, I think (fingers crossed I am right) that the Rover V8 is lighter than the L Series because it is all aluminium.

This has proven to be an excellent debate - so much passion and conviction from people that care about their Zs. When it is finished we will all end up propping a bar up at a show discussing life death and the universe but the V8 subject will ALWAYS be a contentious one. Even if I turn out to be wrong and not like the car at all I could never admit it now Even if an anti campaigner liked it immensely, I know the best I will ever get will be a grudgingly said "It's ok"

It would be so dull if there was nothing contentious to argue about or debate. The proof of the pudding will be A/B comparisons with an L Series engined Z.

Soap box stowed safely away for a little while

Cheers

Andy

 

[240z]

finally the gloves are off just kidding..

Yes, there will always be contention over engine transplants, probably because it is seen as the 'heart' of the car. people can completely replace the bodywork with some hideous fibreglass concoction, and will not have it labelled as 'not a zed'.

As I said previously I would say my car is a 1jz engined 240z, I'm not trying to pass it off as an original spec car. but from the outside it looks like a standard car (apart for the wheels), which is the major part of it for me. I would never call it a kit car, even in the eyes of the law it is still a 240z...

Also enough people must have thought it a 240z voting for it as runner up 240z at billing

I also believe you can improve on the handling of the original car with V8 or straight 6.

I personally don't see too much difference between my car and mark rayners 260z in the modernised stakes, as we both have a twin turbo straight six that was never available in an s30, and have similar modern engine management, and also modernised brakes/driveline/wheels etc. but I don't think many people would be brave enough to call his car 'not a zed'.

After all this though I still stand by 'each to his/her own' as we all have different ideas and dreams of our ideal car... and we are also allowed our own opinion about them!

 

[ZHead]

Maybe the problem is the naming convention ............... as it is a 5.7 litre should I do as the Americans frequently do and refer to it as a 570z, that way no purist would be offended ??

Ever noticed how close the words purist and puritan are ?

Only kidding folks - have genuinely enjoyed the fiery debate.

 

[SeanDezart]

One little niggling point I always had about the Rover V8 conversion was the fact that it sat so far back in the engine bay (weight distribution ?) and left a rather unsightly (in my view) hole between the front of the block and the back of the radiator ! Looked as if it was never in a million years designed for the Z !

Guys, you know I'm no purist !

 

[SeanDezart]

For the A550 check out the other thread I started - perhaps more relevant to continue there.

Rob, I agree that the 18R-G engine (readily available) would be an ideal 'replica' base and very tuneable ! Make a nice sound too !