HybridZ

[SeanDezart]

Having now driven a 300ZXT and noted how different it is from the 280 which is in turn different again from the 260 and ultimately 240, it made me reflect on the different characteristics (I said different not better or worse) of each car and more specifically the engines and general driveability. In fact, it made me reflect furthe on those who transplant engines into their Zs ! Now, a 300ZXT or TT engine on paper will give a (240) Z more power which in theory will allow the driver to go quicker but my ZXT engine delivers power differently than an L series engine and would disappoint a Z lover. I can’t help feeling that any non-L series engine in a Z will also disappoint !

Why ? Because the power delivery, whether it be a Supra, ZX, Skyline and V8, although in abundance will not give the same thrill as an L series. Couples to that is the different sounds and weight distribution and more importantly – the look ! Now, all of us can and will appreciate the engineering accomplishment which accompanys anything out of the norm. And it is certainly the fashion to climb the power peaks, we began when 200 bhp was attained and now 600+ is not inattainable. But at any event, I feel (very personal view) that most people will glance over any ‘kit-car’ and spend more time inspecting a well sorted L series – in my opinion, anyone wishng to impress with a non L series engine will do so in the short-term only !
A Z was built around the L series, it handles superbly, has the correct weight distribution and the right look. I can’t imagine anyone putting a Skyline engine in a Z without all the tricks that came as standard on that car – better to transpose a Z body onto a Skyline chassis but then we’d say it wasn’t a ‘real’ Z – and the inverse ?

As for those who wish to ‘slip in’ a V8, I know there is a famous Z man who is a favourite for this but he isn’t a track man, strictly straight-line speed !
The two Z fans I have spoken to recently who have extensive experience on circuits would both prefer a standard Z to a ‘hybrid’ for the sheer driving ability and agility, something that always set apart the Z from other contempories !

Bottom line, if you want to transplant, do it, hats off to you, especially for doing what YOU want and not following the herd but it’s no longer a Z and won’t behave as such !

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by SeanDezart
A Z was built around the L series, it handles superbly, has the correct weight distribution and the right look.

I can’t imagine anyone putting a Skyline engine in a Z without all the tricks that came as standard on that car – better to transpose a Z body onto a Skyline chassis but then we’d say it wasn’t a ‘real’ Z – and the inverse ?

Not only the L-series Sean.

The S30-series Z was born as a set of triplets ( or more if you prefer to divide variants a bit more ). One of the siblings in this little instant 'family' had a Skyline engine from birth.

It was the fastest, most powerful and most agile of them all. It was also arguably the variant that was the most quintessentially 'sporting' of the brood.

Anybody who has had the pleasure of a drive in one of these cars would surely not object to the idea of a 'Skyline' engine in an S30-series Z body. Its just a question of which Skyline engine..........

 

[datsfun]

Well said Count.

 

[steven lack]

i could always take the R30 FJ 20 turbo out of my beloved skyline .
If i could get the nismo crank and other bits 450bhp and it would run all day forever but it will stay where it is cause it works so well just about 200 bhp more than enough 0-100 in about 15 secs

 

[ZHead]

Count I doff my cap - you always come up with facts, pictures and figures that astound me Kinda helps my corner too, thanks !!

I agree with Sean in many respects, there is a "purist" view and a "real world" view of supposedly classic cars.

There is a car company near me that rebuilds classic mark II jags but with proper suspension, proper brakes and a well tuned engine. Likewise, the L Series happens to work very well in a 240, right balance, right character, right manufacturer's badge etc BUT..... if you take the purists view then I take it you will run with drum brakes ? Standard suspension ? No, thought not.
It is seemingly deemed acceptable to transplant modern high tech brakes and modern high tech suspension provided the engine is an L Series, kind of a "pseudopurists" view really.

What though, if your personal grin factor is the rumble of a V8 ? Having something different ? Having enough torque to peel the skin of your eyeballs at full acceleration ?

By the time the work is done to "rebalance" the car back to 50/50 or near as damnit, you have the same balance but anywhere from 100 - 200lbs heavier, the weight of a passenger. 420BHP and 418ft lbs of torque will more than cope with a passenger, even a lardy fat one like me.

"The Crowd" would dictate generally that the car is standard-ish, mod the suspension and brakes, breathe on the engine, however, that would simply not give me what I am looking to achieve. I am looking for masses of grunt, the rumble of a V8 not a 6 and something different .... and finally..........

The V8 conversion is bolt in - the L Series will be crated up, ready to reinstall if ever I want the car back how it started (which I am sure I will if Sean is right).

 

[Russ]

The best bet is to have one of each....

 

[SeanDezart]

Gee zhead, are you unshakeable ? At least I didn't get the newbie defenders screaming for my tail !

I had this image last night of taking a, for example, Skyline, removing the body as if it was a Tamiya radio-controlled car and fitting on a Z body - than the car would look the buiss but still have all the trick bitz to keep the power where it should be and the ar on the road !
Are you sure that a V8 Z is going to go around corners as well as a L series car ?
There are more than purists and engine transplanters, there are the modifiers of which I count myself, someone who, yes, wants to update the car to modern motoring standards (ish) but in keeping with the original cars' character !
Thankyou Count for the stilettto under the armpit - brought me down a peg but since the 432 was such a limited run, I don't think it has a great bearing here. Bit like saying the Toyota 2000GT was a role model for the Celica !

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by SeanDezart
Thankyou Count for the stilettto under the armpit - brought me down a peg but since the 432 was such a limited run, I don't think it has a great bearing here. Bit like saying the Toyota 2000GT was a role model for the Celica !

Wasn't a stiletto, it was a kitten-heel.

"Limited run"? Have you got Beck-itis?

They made less than 500, and your point is? So the Porsche 911R, 911S/T and other limited-run homologation specials must all be discounted if they didn't make very many of them? You are missing the whole point of their existence. The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long.........

My point is that the S30-series Z range was designed with, productionised with and launched with an S20-engined variant.
So they were NOT all L-series engined from the get-go. Every single S30-series Z shows tell-tales ( scars if you like ) of the S20 variants' existence.

First S30-series Z to be entered in a race world wide? 432R.
First S30-series Z to win a race world wide? 432R

Landmarks in Z history, but largely ignored by "Z historians" outside Japan.

 

[Albrecht]

And the Toyota 2000GT and Toyota Celica are two quite different models of car from two different time periods.

The L-series engined S30-series Z cars and the S20-engined S30-series Z cars were designed, produced, launched and sold at the same time as each other. They were both variants of the same basic model. Quite a different situation to the 2000GT and the Celica I think.

 

[Black Bug]

Anymore info you can offer on this S20 engine, Count? From the pic I can tell it's a crossflow, presumably 2l, twin cam? What sort of power specs does it have and how many million bucks do you need to get one these days?!!

Cheers,
Rob

 

[240z]

Well, I have to agree with Sean ( a bit ) in that I think updates should stay within the character of the car. As I said I would love an RB engined car, keeping it in the family. I also heard that the RB series was developed from the s20 to some degree, any truth in that? count?

I think my engine is in keeping with the character of the car, being 2.5 litre and free revving... with a similar torque curve, although not even the same manufacturer.. just more power and still smooth idle and drivability..

I would, as Russ said, ideally have 2 cars, I would love a period racer such as the works 240ZR.. though that has an LY28!?

I was even going to turn my old Dave Jarmen modified 240z into a 71 Japan GrandPrix (kenji tohira) replica (as best I could), before the opportunity of my current car came up. I would still LOVE to have such a car.

I am still contemplating getting the bolt-on overfenders and wide gun-metal watanabe wheels for my current car

I personally think there is a big difference between 'period' modifying and modernising. As soon as you put on modern wilwood brakes, for instance, the period charm is lost...

 

[SeanDezart]

I would say that 500 cars out of 156000 was a limited run, wouldn’t you my dear Count ? And are you trying to say that the 432 was a homologation special or was it productionised and launched with the the S30s ? Homologations usually get developed later to ‘pass’ certain parts, designs for racing, ie the ‘G-nose’ !
It seems a shame that Nissan developed the S20 engine and let it fade away (in S30 terms), the commonly held reason is that it was too expensive ! So, was it just their S30 flagship or a cunning way around the Japanese 2 litre tax laws that flopped or was it by putting it into an S30, Nissan gave it the best test bed they could for further development in other, future models ?
Might have been 1st entered and 1ST to win, but it was the L series engines that made the ‘worldwide’ racing headlines, translated into sales figures !

Still, you’re missing the point of my post which is that in my opnion, the S30 should be run with it’s original (or a close variant thereof) engine ! Now, a 432 ‘replica’ could boast an RB20dett engine under those ‘rules’ ! ! !

Ps I don’t even glance at Porsches unless there is a 9 and a 7 either side of a 1 !

The MK1 Celica appeared in 1969 and so one ca

 

[SeanDezart]

so one can assume it was designed at least two years prior, just when the 2000GT was being sold and breaking world records, setting the paving down for a nice, mass-produced sports coupé, sound anything like the S30 story (except that the A550X became the S30 and the 2000GT faded away (too expensive, like the 432 ?) ?

240z, I've got Wilwood brakes on mine and having tried my best with an uprated 280ZX setup (more or less period) and less power, I don't regret the choice and stand up, waiting for the ripe tomatoe throwing !

 

[ZHead]

Unshakeable is probably a good way to describe it Sean - I understand that what I am just embarking on is not everyone's cup of tea, I understand that it will change the way the car behaves but at least I have the guts to have a go and see. If I am wrong and I hate it then I will put the L Series back in, if however I get it right, 50/50 weight balance back but about 100 - 200lbs heavier then I will love it immensely.

It's not the kill it's the thrill of the chase - sure the end product is what I am after but the project itself will bring me a great deal of pleasure.

 

[SeanDezart]

I've PMd you !

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by Black Bug
Anymore info you can offer on this S20 engine, Count? From the pic I can tell it's a crossflow, presumably 2l, twin cam? What sort of power specs does it have and how many million bucks do you need to get one these days?!!
Cheers,
Rob

Hi Rob,

S20 specs for you:

6 cylinder inline. 24 valve. Double overhead cam. 'Crossflow' design. Hemispherical combustion chambers.
*1989cc capacity.
*82mm bore x 62.8mm stroke.
*9.5:1 compression ratio.
*3 x N40PHH Mikuni Solex carburettors.
*Electronic Ignition.
*6 branch stainless steel tubular ex. manifold.
*Power = 160ps @ 7,000 rpm ( red line 8.5k )
*Torque = 18.0kg-m @ 5,600 rpm

The whole point ( usually missed ) about the 432 and 432R is that the cars were a complete and balanced package. That S20 engine was mated to a close-ratio 5-speed trans, running to a beefy R192 diff using a 4.44 ratio and an LSD. The Springs and dampers were rated higher than all other models, as were the anti-roll bars. Even the steering ratio was 'quicker'.

S20 engines are not cheap. £5000 or so would get you a rebuild project in Japan. Not a lot of bang per Sterling, but its more about revs and flavour.

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by Sean Dezart
I would say that 500 cars out of 156000 was a limited run, wouldn’t you my dear Count ?

Sure, it was a limited run. But it seems to me that you are trying to marginalise it as some kind of 'failure' by comparing it to the sum total production figure of ALL the other variants - right up to the beginning of the S130 model. That sir, is comparing apples with the sum total of all other fruit - and not just oranges

Please don't play the numbers game with the 432. Do you really think that Nissan actually expected the 432 to sell as well as the L20-engined models? Do you think they expected to sell as many GTRs as GTs and GT-Xs? Of course not.

Originally posted by Sean Dezart
And are you trying to say that the 432 was a homologation special or was it productionised and launched with the the S30s ? Homologations usually get developed later to ‘pass’ certain parts, designs for racing, ie the ‘G-nose’ !

Technically speaking, the 432R was the nominated 'homologation special' of the 432.
As I mentioned before, the S20 engined cars ( the 432 and 432R ) were designed, productionised, launched and sold at the same time as the L20 and L24 engined variants.
Sean - both the 432 and 432R were S30s! I can't make it any plainer than that.
Nissan had intentions to race the S30-series Z well before it reached production. Racing was not an afterthought. They were thinking ahead of the game. There are details on the bodyshells of ALL the first S30-series Z models that were there PRECISELY because of this fact. Nissan's intentions were clear. They also knew that different markets would mean different variants for racing.

Originally posted by Sean Dezart
It seems a shame that Nissan developed the S20 engine and let it fade away (in S30 terms), the commonly held reason is that it was too expensive ! So, was it just their S30 flagship or a cunning way around the Japanese 2 litre tax laws that flopped or was it by putting it into an S30, Nissan gave it the best test bed they could for further development in other, future models ?

Don't forget the economic climate of the time ( the "Oil Shock" as they called it in Japan ) calling for better economy, and the worldwide tide of anti-emissions laws. The S20 was also - as you correctly state - expensive to make and maintain. But they didn't need a 'test bed' for the S20 by that time; it had already excelled in the GTR.
The true successor of the S20 was the FJ series 4 cylinder. Nissan had seen the light of fuel injection and engine management, and ( later ) forced induction. The RB series reverted back to 6 cylinder configuration later. It was the FJ and RB that descended from the S20, and the L-series engines that went off into the wilderness so to speak......

Originally posted by Sean Dezart
Might have been 1st entered and 1ST to win, but it was the L series engines that made the ‘worldwide’ racing headlines, translated into sales figures !

You seem to be missing Nissan's intentions for the S20-engined model in Japan. These are JAPANESE cars we are talking about here Sean. Nissan's self-image and prestige in its home ( Japanese ) market is - like all Japanese car manufacturers - one of its preoccupations. Its not ALL about huge Export sales. If you think that then you don't understand the Japanese national psyche.
I'd also dispute the inference that the race success of the L-series engined cars was what made the cars such good sellers. Of course, it had a big effect - but I would say that they would have sold well anyway, and the race success served simply to bolster a reputation that was won on the street and indeed in the showroom ( looks alone must have counted for a hell of a lot of sales! ).

Originally posted by Sean Dezart
Still, you’re missing the point of my post which is that in my opnion, the S30 should be run with it’s original (or a close variant thereof) engine ! Now, a 432 ‘replica’ could boast an RB20dett engine under those ‘rules’ ! ! !

I only wanted to remind you that not ALL S30-series Z cars came with the L-series engine, and that the S30-series bodyshell was also built to house the S20 engine. You said that the S30-series Z was "built around" the L-series 6, which is only half of the truth.

Where's the "I know I'm a pedantic Tw*t" smiley when you need it, eh?

 

[ZHead]

Stunned by the detail !!!! Excellent learning resource this forum.

OUt of interest Albrecht, have you ever seen one of the twin cam versions ? I appreciate they are the proverbial rocking horse manure, I just wondered whether they would be more valuable becaue of that of just more interesting ?

Wonder if they drive much differently.

 

[Albrecht]

Originally posted by ZHead
OUt of interest Albrecht, have you ever seen one of the twin cam versions ? I appreciate they are the proverbial rocking horse manure, I just wondered whether they would be more valuable becaue of that of just more interesting ?

Wonder if they drive much differently.

Hi ZHead,
I had my first drive of a Fairlady Z432 around the Tsukuba race circuit in Japan back in the late Eighties. It was a revelation.

It was the fact that it worked so well as a package that surprised me most. The 4.44 ratio diff ( with LSD as standard ) allowed the engine to use all its revs really nicely, and had the effect of closing up the gear ratios. It just felt 'right'. I got the feeling that with a little more familiarity and confidence, a driver could really make one of these things dance. It's not an outright power thing, its a total package and equal-measures thing.

I've driven quite a few since then. Several of my Japanese friends are serious collectors and restorers.

They are expensive in comparison to 'ordinary' S30-series Z cars in Japan. They have always been seen as the 'premium' model over there ( even at the world launch of the S30-series Z in Japan, the 432 was promoted as the top-of-the-range version ) and nowadays they tend to be owned by arch enthusiasts who know their stuff. At current exchange rates, you would need around £25,000 to get a good one in Japan. I don't see one coming over here any time soon! I'm currently building a replica of the 432R, using a fair few genuine parts. I'm aiming at the 'flavour' of the original. That's what its all about for me - flavour.

 

[240z]

This is all great and v interesting info!

I thought that a good Fairlady Z432 would fetch even more than that though, but how about a 432R?


Any idea how much lighter the 432R was than an 'ordinary' s30 fairlady Z at the time? did this affect its improved drivability?