Interesting video

[candy red]

 

[Albrecht]

There's a lot to commend in this video, but I'd like to nit-pick about one aspect of his take as its a topic that came up elsewhere in the last couple of weeks.

All this "It's a Mercedes engine" or "Mercedes design" stuff is based on a false premise. That false premise is that the L16 four cylinder engine, as used in the 510-series Bluebird of 1967, was an "all new design", not directly linked to any Nissan/Datsun engine which preceded it. The inference is that it was a direct product of Nissan's merger with Prince Motor Co. in 1966.

The presenter states quite confidently that Prince made Mercedes engines "under license". This is not true. There was a long-standing legend that Prince had licensed some Mercedes patents with regard to the Prince G7 2-litre OHC six of 1963, with the most likely area of licensing being in the valvetrain. Yes, it looks very similar to the Mercedes M180 engine of the early 1950s in that area, but that's it. Nobody - to my knowledge - has ever found any hard evidence of Mercedes-Prince licensing deal and there are many, many fundamental differences between the two engines.

Nissan created their first 'L-series' OHC engine in 1964, the two litre 'L20' six which debuted in the 1965 Gloria Special Six. This too had some similarities to the Mercedes M180 and Prince G7 in its valvetrain componentry. The L20 six was created in hurried response to the engine of Nissan's main rival Toyota's new 'M' series six in their 1965 Crown model. The L20 six was not related to the Prince G7 and the Nissan-Prince merger was not until 1966, so how could there be a direct Mercedes-design link between the Prince G7 and Nissan's L20?

As usual, sales and marketing - particularly that of the North American market - is responsible for muddying the waters. Nissan USA's sales and advertising painted the L16 four of the Datsun 510 as "All New!" (and "...created expressly for the USA market!" which was cobblers...) but it was actually derived from that 1964 L20 six which the USA never saw. The 1966 update - taking advantage of new pressure die-casting machinery at Nissan's Atsugi plant - rationalised the design and architecture into a 'module' family of four and six cylinder variants which shared components. Yes, some of it was new and - indeed - better, but it was an evolution of an existing design, not the product of a clean slate.

The same people who want you to believe that the Mercedes M180 and Prince G7 donated DNA to the L16 and - by inference - the L24 also want you to swallow their conviction that the Nissan L20 six of 1964 is NOT related in any way to the L16 of 1966. All this despite the witness account of the chief designer of the L20 six, which contradicts it. Doesn't add up, does it?

 

[MCBladeRun]

There's a lot to commend in this video, but I'd like to nit-pick about one aspect of his take as its a topic that came up elsewhere in the last couple of weeks.

All this "It's a Mercedes engine" or "Mercedes design" stuff is based on a false premise. That false premise is that the L16 four cylinder engine, as used in the 510-series Bluebird of 1967, was an "all new design", not directly linked to any Nissan/Datsun engine which preceded it. The inference is that it was a direct product of Nissan's merger with Prince Motor Co. in 1966.

The presenter states quite confidently that Prince made Mercedes engines "under license". This is not true. There was a long-standing legend that Prince had licensed some Mercedes patents with regard to the Prince G7 2-litre OHC six of 1963, with the most likely area of licensing being in the valvetrain. Yes, it looks very similar to the Mercedes M180 engine of the early 1950s in that area, but that's it. Nobody - to my knowledge - has ever found any hard evidence of Mercedes-Prince licensing deal and there are many, many fundamental differences between the two engines.

Nissan created their first 'L-series' OHC engine in 1964, the two litre 'L20' six which debuted in the 1965 Gloria Special Six. This too had some similarities to the Mercedes M180 and Prince G7 in its valvetrain componentry. The L20 six was created in hurried response to the engine of Nissan's main rival Toyota's new 'M' series six in their 1965 Crown model. The L20 six was not related to the Prince G7 and the Nissan-Prince merger was not until 1966, so how could there be a direct Mercedes-design link between the Prince G7 and Nissan's L20?

As usual, sales and marketing - particularly that of the North American market - is responsible for muddying the waters. Nissan USA's sales and advertising painted the L16 four of the Datsun 510 as "All New!" (and "...created expressly for the USA market!" which was cobblers...) but it was actually derived from that 1964 L20 six which the USA never saw. The 1966 update - taking advantage of new pressure die-casting machinery at Nissan's Atsugi plant - rationalised the design and architecture into a 'module' family of four and six cylinder variants which shared components. Yes, some of it was new and - indeed - better, but it was an evolution of an existing design, not the product of a clean slate.

The same people who want you to believe that the Mercedes M180 and Prince G7 donated DNA to the L16 and - by inference - the L24 also want you to swallow their conviction that the Nissan L20 six of 1964 is NOT related in any way to the L16 of 1966. All this despite the witness account of the chief designer of the L20 six, which contradicts it. Doesn't add up, does it?

I think I was reading a post of yours on a gtr forum (432 replica) and the poster mentioned that it's mostly to do with nothing being translated into English and guessing what Datsun/Nissan were doing at the time.

The 'west' like to romanticise history a lot of the time, always eager to fill in the gaps with what feels likely to them - Mercedes being the better manufacturer in their eyes?

I liked the video but, eyebrows raised when he tried to establish, as you said; false narrative.

 

[Albrecht]

Good point and yes, I think that kind of vacuum was often filled with urban myth or just plain made-up stuff. That's how Goertz was able to get his name attached to something that had nothing to do with him. Still does, in fact.

Another very real factor is the legacy of conflict. For example, the story that Nissan wanted to use the Datsun name for export sales because, "...if they failed it would not bring shame on the Nissan name." Nothing to do with the fact that half the world had recently been fighting Japanese forces who were riding around in trucks that said 'NISSAN' on the front of them.