Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
It’s not grey, it’s not murky, it’s black and white.
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Values & VIN Swapping
- Thread starter SeanDezart
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Even if the VIN is 'handed', I think the majority opinion is that the number should stick with the big chunk of metal it's on regardless of the modifications performed to it.
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN. One or t'other is no more or less legal.
The latter is legal, the former is not. The 'reshelled' car would have to have a DVLA assessment and be potentially issued with a new VIN number.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Seriously? Wow...
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
This is the sort of thing we should be talking about on an open forum. It’s a way of not hiding history.
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
Sean, you do know what’s right and wrong. A vin number is assigned to a chassis, not a bulkhead. Swapping the bulkhead to rhd, it’s still a lhd vin number. Anything else is ringing.
richiep
Club Member
This. But Sean's in agent provocateur-mode and fancies generating some 'spirited conversation' for the sake of it!
You can replace a lot of a car through repairs and it still be considered its original identity - even the bulkhead: as long as that bulkhead is new and NOT from another car, and being used to change legal identity/VIN number.
Maybe French rules are different, but that is the current situation here.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
This. But Sean's in agent provocateur-mode and fancies generating some 'spirited conversation' for the sake of it!
Maybe French rules are different, but that is the current situation here.
Luckily for the UK then that the law isn't retoractive BUT I remember Alan saying a long while ago that whilst prices remain low, nobody bats an eyelid but wait 'til they go up !
Which is where we are now !
Years ago, reshelling was done 'cos it was :
affordable
quick
provided a better chance of longer-lasting protection
kept certain
competition cars competingIt wasn't done to make a profit and what as there to be made on a £2-4k car back then ?
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
I don't see any difference between a UK RHD Z reshelled using a clean LHD chassis and original RHD VIN vs. a clean LHD chassis converted to RHD and using the original LHD VIN. One or t'other is no more or less legal.
The only difference appears to be in your (all of you) estimated end-values of each type of car.....with all the money (and therefore incentive for fraud) going on the RHD VIN with RHD chassis.
How many buyers could and would search for the tell-tale signs ?
Yeah, seriously.
In theory, both VIN plates will have been removed from their respective chassis and rewelded back in whether just the plate or the entire bulkhead. You're arguing over size, not principle.
Or somebody explain to me how else to do such conversions ?
Admitedly the RHD Z using a LHD VIN will not have seen another number but we're saying here that this type of car is worth the least in the UK - right ?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
OK, per yesterday's FB discussion: How about taking an 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number and supporting documentation from one car, and putting it on another 'HLS30' prefixed car? Essentially an identity swap. You seemed to be supporting this possibility yesterday.
Some things to think about: Why does the recipient car need a chassis number and identity-supporting documentation? Where has the recipient car's original chassis number and identity gone? Where has the donor chassis number and documentation come from, and what has happened to the remains of the donor?
Potential Can O' Worms, isn't it?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Why the obsession with "worth" and perceived value?
Worst case scenario, cars could be confiscated and crushed. What will be their value then?
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
True but worth and value are driving these practices - fact of life and one which you highligthed many moons ago.
Great point raised earlier. If you have two shells one mostly solid (the donor) and one in dire need of repair (the recipient) - is there any legitimate reason not to use the donor shells identity? If it's purely a cost / simplicity decision there's no reason to try and keep the recipient identity except to deceive people (or yourself?).
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Yep, can of worms and every classic cars have them - I've seen Porsches done for real and I'm sure that Alfas, Fiat, Ford Escort MK1s are done.
Relating to your example...when a Heritage shell is used - is a new VIN supplied by the DVLA or the old one ?
If not, what is the real difference between swapping a VIN from one chassis to another ? Merely the age of the chassis - a moot point !
Your things to think about :
First is obvious.
No car keeper or seller will care for the others - the car will be registered with it's ID as is or not - rarely will anyone look further : simple fact.
I believe you can keep the VIN when it's a new shell from the manufacturer. Seems like it's their way of making sure you don't take an unsafe, written off car shell and get it back on the road with a new identity.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
All you've quoted is some bloke importing a LHD (I assume ?) car to use instead of his dead garage project and also (I assume ?) converting it to RHD.
Everyone here seems to say that that is ok although that would normally involve the cutting out of the VIN and placing it in the correct RHD zone. The conversion might also involve a complete bulkhead swap which, preseumably for everyone here is ok too ?
I'm not against any swapping VINs when it finishes with a safe car and MOT-ed and registered with the correct authorities - in your case, the DVLA.
I know of people on the continent importing LHD cars from the States and putting their existing VINs in.
a) because of the same restoration costs saved
b)incredibly difficult and expensive to register (not import - that will already have been done to physically get the car into the country) an imported Z - Portugal is a prime example but there are plenty of others, Denmark, Norway....
And as market values rise, so the issue will become more and more important.
But we hear every year of some 'barn-find' which'll be worth loads when restored or the best one still, I read some 260Z 2+2 owner here who lives near Strasbourg claiming that his triple 40mm Webers came off the Le Mans car....:lol:
There's always some angle for someone to expect more for their car-sale.....unless there is a famous and especially competition car being re-shelled, I don't see a problem in common or garden mass-produced Zs being reshelled to keep them alive whether that be 15% new metal or 80%.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
So why not allow the same practice for LH to RH conversions ?
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
In the case of 'Heritage' replacement bodyshells, there's no identity switching going on. A replacement part is being supplied by the original manufacturer - or an agent thereof - and the chassis number is usually stamped on a plate which is affixed to that replacement bodyshell. Key point is that there is no second or third party - already existing donor with its own identity - involved in the equation. This was always the case with the classic 'body in white' replacement monocoque/bodyshell from a manufacturer.
With the Nissan S30-series, the chassis number is engraved on the firewall at birth - effectively making the bodyshell/unibody unit 'The Car'. Part Number One. Supported by its engine bay-affixed chassis tag (stamped with the chassis number) and - in the case of North American market versions - the door jamb tag and dash tag, this forms the unit's identity. Theoretically, it's not a moveable feast. You can chop and change a car around, strip it down to a 'shell, hybridise, bastardise and mess around as much as you want (subject to inspection...) but you can't legally change its identity without full disclosure to the licensing authorities and acceptance of their choice for its destiny (including their VIN and a 'Q' plate, if they see fit). That's the situation in the UK as I understand it.
There are no replacement bodyshells available from Nissan anyway, so the 'Heritage 'shell' situation as far as it applies to 'us' is a straw man.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
As long as there's no stolen/ringed/cut-and-shuts in the equation, maybe so.
Sage advice: "Keep it on the down low..."
The original VIN plate fixed to my '74 260z was as far as I can tell stolen by a 'reputable' z specialist a few years ago when in for extensive repair work. It was replaced without my knowledge by a 240z plate (car no HS30 101095). I didn't notice for quite some time but gather that the replacement was from a scrapped vehicle.
I did make a posting to the club site but it was dismissed as 'my problem' which was a little dissapointing. There is probably a 260z out there carrying my cars original VIN plate and at some point I am sure things will come to a head. By way of evidence I do have several photographs of the original VIN plate on my car which can be used in evidence. If you have bought a restored 260z during the last few years do take a close look at the VIN plate. You may have bought a ringer.
I did make a posting to the club site but it was dismissed as 'my problem' which was a little dissapointing. There is probably a 260z out there carrying my cars original VIN plate and at some point I am sure things will come to a head. By way of evidence I do have several photographs of the original VIN plate on my car which can be used in evidence. If you have bought a restored 260z during the last few years do take a close look at the VIN plate. You may have bought a ringer.
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