Values & VIN Swapping | The Z Club of Great Britain
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Values & VIN Swapping

Discussion in 'General discussion' started by SeanDezart, Oct 20, 2017.

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  1. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    Two questions :

    Which is 'worth' more on the open(UK) market - a RHD VIN-ed Z or a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z or an original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z ?:unsure:

    Or do buyers judge each car simply upon condition and specification ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2017
  2. franky

    franky
    Z Club Member

    Surely the car that has the incorrect vin has the lowest value of them all. we all know that. Its not like its a prominent car with history attached to that vin.
     
  3. Albrecht

    Albrecht Well-Known Forum User

    Do you think VIN-swapping is legal, Sean?

    Your happy-go-lucky chassis number-swapping pal seems to have convinced you that it's all perfectly above board.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2017
  4. Albrecht

    Albrecht Well-Known Forum User

  5. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    Alan - please answer my questions above first.:thumbs:
     
  6. Albrecht

    Albrecht Well-Known Forum User

    OK, I'll play:

    "a RHD lhdVIN-ed Z" should - all other things being equal - be worth less than your theoretical "RHD VIN-ed Z" (what market, what variant?) and/or your theoretical "original UK market RHD VIN-ed Z" (again, what variant?).

    It's not a matter of either/or. Any sensible and informed buyer will inspect and judge on specification, condition and year, model, variant, RHD/LHD and everything else, according to their requirements and budget. If the car has been subject to identity/chassis number/documentation swapping, all bets are off. Guess why?
     
  7. Mr Tenno

    Mr Tenno
    ZClub Administrator
    Staff Member Committee Member

    I think you know the answer to your questions Sean :D

    I'd say, assuming a similar condition and specification:

    1st: Original (UK) market RHD with original VIN Z
    2nd: Original (SA, AUS, JP etc) market RHD with original VIN Z
    3rd: RHD Converted Z with original LHD VIN.

    Shouldn't be considered: Z with incorrect VIN

    If the specification and condition vary, as they often do, it's more down to that but I'd imagine most people have the above as a 'modifier' on the price they're willing to pay in the back of their head.
     
  8. franky

    franky
    Z Club Member

    A fairlady is always worth more than a uk 240z
     
  9. chrisvega

    chrisvega
    Z Club Member

    Why is a SA or AUS spec. car worth less than UK spec ?

    I know hypothetically we are supposed to be comparing 'all things being equal condition wise' but most times the SA/AUS car will be in superior original structural condition anyway which gives it higher status/value/desirability as far as I am concerned.

    Also were UK/SA/AUS cars not all built on same production line to the same ROW spec anyway ?
     
  10. franky

    franky
    Z Club Member

    I’d like to know why people see the need to swap vin numbers?
     
  11. Mr Tenno

    Mr Tenno
    ZClub Administrator
    Staff Member Committee Member

    I know what you mean Chris, assuming they are structurally similar though I'd imagine most UK buyers would prefer a UK car, already registered, speedo in MPH, might have club history etc.
     
  12. chrisvega

    chrisvega
    Z Club Member

    Now you are being naive and I thought being an ex-sailor you were a man of the world ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2017
  13. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    Original UK market RHD Zs - which variant ? You can surely only mean 240Z, 260Z or 260Z 2+2 and one can only compare like for like so variants not an issue imho.

    But one will have to know that an I.D/chassis has been swapped !*

    *There are quite a few of these last cars running around imho.

    What variant ?:D
     
  14. Albrecht

    Albrecht Well-Known Forum User

    Judging by our (now deleted by a Moderator...) exchange last night on the Datsun Europe Parts and Needs Facebook group, you seem to believe that identity-swapping is OK?

    Under what circumstances?
     
  15. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    This is what I picked out as a summing up statement and written recently by one of those who frequently reported ebay adverts :

    "Thursday 14th September 2017 skwdenyer said:
    So you buy the "for restoration" Mk1 shell + log book for £66k, buy a new shell and "re-shell" the car (quite legal), put on the axles etc. that you've had "restored" (ah-hem). Dodgy as hell?

    Think about the life of a competition car. Actual rally cars would be like Trigger's broom - new shells, new axles, new engines, etc. There's no way any of it is "original" on a great many cars, but there we are.

    I'm genuinely interested - ignoring the legality for a moment, where would people on this thread draw the line? What is "ok" and what is "not ok" and how is that squared with what has happened in the past?

    Anything can be used for illegal purposes, and the law can be good or bad or indifferent. I'm just interested in the personal moral angle here.
    I'm completely content for people to do that, and I don't have a problem with the V5s that are sold with a shell/chassis, even if what you're physically getting is truly horrible. I've seen some real miracle workers out there in terms of metalwork. Almost anything is nominally fixable with the right approach, and a nice new shell is a perfectly ok thing to use in my opinion.

    To be honest, I don't even particularly mind people using a V5 to legitamise a "bitsa" as long as all the parts were obtained legally, though that's not really necessary. You can get a classic that's been built from a variety of parts registered as what it "should" be anyway.

    My issue is when people can use this paperwork to ring a stolen car, "launder" a write off, or otherwise defraud people by selling something as what it isn't."


    The issue appears to be when a re-VINed shell is sold as something it isn't.

    Now, is it illegal to do such a restoration whether for yourself or selling on ? Or merely illegal to sell it on without informing the buyer of said conversion ?

    I don't know is my answer Alan !
     
  16. SeanDezart

    SeanDezart
    Z Club Member
    Official Trader

    I didn't delete it !

    You didn't answer my question above - play fair and nicely please.;)

    You KNOW the circumstances and 'ok' means what anyway ? Acceptable within the community, ok as regards the law, ok for the FIA homologation process ?

    Identity swapping....meaning RHD cars with LHD VINs ? That is an identity swap surely ?

    There are RHD cars with RHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.
    Then there are LHD cars with LHD VINs that have had a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced.

    Have these cars changed identity ? RHD = RHD, LHD = LHD - same identity.

    RHD car with LHD VIN frequently also with a 'large' % of their original chassis replaced = same identity ?
     
  17. Mr Tenno

    Mr Tenno
    ZClub Administrator
    Staff Member Committee Member

    Gents, this is obviously a controversial and heated topic. Please try to keep it as impersonal and objective as possible so we can keep the discussion going.
     
  18. franky

    franky
    Z Club Member

    Sean, would you sell a vin swapped car? Would you support it as a practice?
     
  19. Mr Tenno

    Mr Tenno
    ZClub Administrator
    Staff Member Committee Member

    The DVLA site would seem to suggest that 5 'points' from their criteria come from:

    Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

    Since you can't get these for Z's that would make any complete shell swap (let's leave triggers's broom situations aside) unable to retain it's VIN legally in the UK without a DVLA inspection and approval.

    I don't think we should consider the value of cars where a buyer may have been misled about the origins of the shell as this is obviously shady behaviour which the club does not condone.
     
  20. franky

    franky
    Z Club Member


    By posting it, then removing the conversation he’s inadvertently gone a long way in destroying any credibility.
     
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