Samuri for sale at NEC

[SeanDezart]

Quaint story but that's about all. Worth paying a premium of many extra £000s for ? Not in my book, I'll take the properly restored 'ordinary car' with tasteful mods every time thanks.

And yet if you come across a genuine one at a bargain price, you wouldn't object to obtaining a +£40k sale price either - lets not be hypocritical here and simply accept the realism that 'the market' has accepted them as 'worth' more so....they are whether we agree, like it or not.

A lot of small-volume cars began (and their companies finished or flourished) from such humble beginnings....

The Auto Avio Costruzioni 815 was the first car to be fully designed and built by Enzo Ferrari. Legal issues with former associates Alfa Romeo prevented Ferrari from creating the Ferrari marque. The 815 raced at the 1940 Brescia Grand Prix, where both entries failed to finish due to engine problems. One of the cars was later scrapped, while the other is currently in a car collection in Italy.

Jean Rédélé, the founder of Alpine, was originally a Dieppe garage proprietor, who began to achieve considerable competition success in one of the few French cars produced just after the Second World War.

Using Renault 4CVs, Rédélé gained class wins in a number of major events, including the Mille Miglia and Coupe des Alpes. As his experience with the little 4CV built up, he incorporated many modifications, including for example, special 5-speed gearboxes replacing the original 3-speed unit. To provide a lighter car he built a number of special versions with lightweight aluminium bodies: he drove in these at Le Mans and Sebring with some success in the early 1950s.

Encouraged by the development of these cars and consequent customer demand, he founded the Société Anonyme des Automobiles Alpine in 1954.

You're only criticising Samuris 'cos they didn't go on to bigger and greater things BUT where did all the HSCC wins, experience and inspirations come from which is still there on the track today ?

I don't see any other S30s 'cept Brits in historic racing in Europe !

 

[STEVE BURNS]

Sean you seem to misunderstand what I am asking
I am asking what people would be willing to pay for a Z not what sellers are asking for them as on the other hand, sellers have always been known ironically to push up values....
I am not asking what a seller thinks they are worth I am asking what a buyer would be happy to pay

 

[STEVE BURNS]

BUT where did all the HSCC wins, experience and inspirations come from
!

Not all of it came from the Samuri stable

 

[Gaz 300]

What would 'we' expect atn that price there ?

100% original ?

Restored partially to make it very presentable and reliable ?

Totally restored ?

Restored and improved ?

The best way I can explain the prices for a z32 300zx is if mine was in an accident and a write-off it would cost me three times what I paid for mine 5 years ago to replace it. So my 3.5k 300zx now has an agreed insurance value of 10k.

 

[MikeB]

So we have someone who has bid around £42k for a modified 260Z that has been restored by a professional. On the face of it, that is probably not too ridiculous, if you think of buying a base car, all the tuning bits and then leaving into a restorer for a full build.

Now there has been some cache by it being named as a Sam, with all the razamataz that comes with that assertion, and it may have added to the price, let's say it's currently circa 20%. So if it has been bought as an investment, it is that 20% that is at risk. I think the risk to those who have bought these recently appeared cars will be that eventually future purchasers may want more than just a post construction certificate from the builder, especially once it is more generally understood that there are no "factory" records and it is reliant on the memory of one person. So cars that have know histories, period documentation & photos will retain the "20%" and those with just a piece of paper written in the following century may find the 20% lessening.

The risk to the cars with a history is that the later cars might taint the name and also lead to a bit of reduction in that price premium

Right I'm off back to my Porsches, where every car is genuine....................

 

[Albrecht]

A lot of small-volume cars began (and their companies finished or flourished) from such humble beginnings....

The Auto Avio Costruzioni 815 was the first car to be fully designed and built by Enzo Ferrari.

Jean Rédélé, the founder of Alpine, was originally a Dieppe garage proprietor, who began to achieve considerable competition success in one of the few French cars produced just after the Second World War.

You might be stretching an arguably salient point a little way past its elastic limit there. That's the first time I've seen Spike Anderson sharing the stage with automotive titans Enzo Ferrari and Jean Rédélé, but I guess - now you've done it - an algorithm will pick up on it and in a few years it'll become truth. Maybe you could try the same trick with his trumpet playing skills?

I don't really want to get into the "what's it worth" and "what would you pay" discussion as its something of a bottomless black hole, but I'm interested in what motivates people like the buyer of the car in question and what they think they've actually bought? I'm not really talking about hard parts *content* (in the context of Samuri Conversions that seems to have been a case-by-case situation by its very nature...) and it's something more nebulous than that; I think it's based on a romantic notion amongst a certain (mostly UK based) group of people that a 'Samuri'/'Super Samuri' is some kind of 240Z/260Z valhalla. People seem to be paying quite a premium for a (recently applied...) paint job and a 'letter of authentication', whilst all the other parts of the puzzle appear to be interchangeable. It's all a little odd.

 

[Albrecht]

...where did all the HSCC wins, experience and inspirations come from which is still there on the track today ?

The great majority of it is down to Nissan's engineers, who very rarely get the credit they were/are due.

 

[SeanDezart]

Not all of it came from the Samuri stable

Quite so.....just most of them and those that remain to this day.

Sean you seem to misunderstand what I am asking
I am asking what people would be willing to pay for a Z not what sellers are asking for them as on the other hand, sellers have always been known ironically to push up values....
I am not asking what a seller thinks they are worth I am asking what a buyer would be happy to pay

I wasn't replying to you Steve but to the others, none of whom mentioned figures of what they'd pay - simply that they wouldn't pay what was a final, public auction price.

I know what mine is costing me and have already said that the orange MZR was cheap - so was Neal's !

 

[SeanDezart]

The great majority of it is down to Nissan's engineers, who very rarely get the credit they were/are due.

Of course Alan - the car wasn't 're-made' but a brilliant base from which to start - just a shame (for us) that Nissan thought that Old-World racing wouldn't attract enough worldwide publicity.

So we have someone who has bid around £42k for a modified 260Z that has been restored by a professional. On the face of it, that is probably not too ridiculous, if you think of buying a base car, all the tuning bits and then leaving into a restorer for a full build.

Now there has been some cache by it being named as a Sam, with all the razamataz that comes with that assertion, and it may have added to the price, let's say it's currently circa 20%. So if it has been bought as an investment, it is that 20% that is at risk. I think the risk to those who have bought these recently appeared cars will be that eventually future purchasers may want more than just a post construction certificate from the builder, especially once it is more generally understood that there are no "factory" records and it is reliant on the memory of one person. So cars that have know histories, period documentation & photos will retain the "20%" and those with just a piece of paper written in the following century may find the 20% lessening.

The risk to the cars with a history is that the later cars might taint the name and also lead to a bit of reduction in that price premium

Right I'm off back to my Porsches, where every car is genuine....................

However, S30s are rising in value at the rate of over 40% per year so still a safe bet.

Nothing like those genuine Porsches of course but they do beg the question of to where all those later shells have disappeared.....all helps the rarity factor I guess .

 

[SeanDezart]

.....I think it's based on a romantic notion amongst a certain (mostly UK based) group of people that a 'Samuri'/'Super Samuri' is some kind of 240Z/260Z valhalla. People seem to be paying quite a premium for a (recently applied...) paint job and a 'letter of authentication', whilst all the other parts of the puzzle appear to be interchangeable. It's all a little odd.

Of course it's emotive - THAT'S the whole point I've been trying to make to the others here - the perception becomes so and it sticks.

There are plenty of cars sold 'out there' from different makes that don't merit on paper their worth but today - they are worth that because the public's perception is so !

There might be no logic but it remains fact.....for now, as the market may be fickle but it is also self-perpetuating - nobody in the trade is going to start hwoling for 911 and Escort prices to reduce to sensible levels !

 

[chrisvega]

However, S30s are rising in value at the rate of over 40% per year so still a safe bet.

Source ?

 

[SeanDezart]

Look back at the classic car mag values 2 yrs and 1 yr ago.

Maybe you don't love them enough over there but here they've gained 50% in just over 12 months.

 

[Albrecht]

Of course it's emotive - THAT'S the whole point I've been trying to make to the others here - the perception becomes so and it sticks.

I completely understand the emotive purchase thing. My point being - and you might need to screw your eyes up and read between my lines a little more closely - that some of the cars being discussed appear to be recent confections riding on very little in the way of provenance.

I'm sorry but the oft-cited 'letter from Spike' really doesn't pass muster when it gets further up the classic car world pecking order. It might have been alright when the cars were changing hands for a few grand, but once you start hitting proper money people will start to look a little more closely.

I have no problem with good cars changing hands for decent money (I've been saying so for years) and that's certainly always been the case for these cars in Japan, where they were made. I just don't think the gap between some of these recent 'Samuri/Super Samuri' examples and their non-Samuri equivalent (ie, without the paint job, the 'letter from Spike' and the shaggy dog stories...) ought to be as wide as it is.

 

[SeanDezart]

I just don't think the gap between some of these recent 'Samuri/Super Samuri' examples and their non-Samuri equivalent (ie, without the paint job, the 'letter from Spike' and the shaggy dog stories...) ought to be as wide as it is.

I read you Alan and also 'see' the bell-rope you've been pulling in recent years but if buyers want to pay BIG money for Samuris of all denominations, I have no problems with that because they'll pull up the others too.

I'm sure that you'd rather all cars are highly esteemed for all the best engineering and heritage reasons rather than some "airfield shed knocking out after-market-tuners" but all means to an end and if the result in the UK and of course my preferred market - the 'exiled' EU because auction reseults are viewed internationally then that's all fine by me.

If certain buyers come a cropper because of falsified docs by whomever and let's not all point one finger at the letter-writer but also chassis swaps by owners/builders over the years, that comes under caveat-emptor and if the s*it really hits the public fan, I'll bet that it'll only add to the 'romance' and not knock any prices, quite the opposite - the market loves a story.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

Quite so.....just most of them and those that remain to this day.



I wasn't replying to you Steve but to the others, none of whom mentioned figures of what they'd pay - simply that they wouldn't pay what was a final, public auction price.

I know what mine is costing me and have already said that the orange MZR was cheap - so was Neal's !

Sean, the Mzr was inexpensive not cheap

 

[SeanDezart]

Sean, the Mzr was inexpensive not cheap

My bad - I believe I asked everyone earlier not to refer to the cars as 'cheaper' which implies as much negativity as comparing a Z to something else and quoting "it looks like a...." !

Everyone assumes its therefore a copy !

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Just being devils advocate here
If you did not have a Z what would you be willing to pay for one
Be totally honest and dont bump up what you would actually pay just because it would be in your personal interest to see values soar

Remember I am asking what you would pay not what cars are for sale for at the moment

And now going to hide behind the wall before some attacks start!

Think I might do a poll on this but do not think in a quite a few cases it would not get an honest responses

Steve, we can't answer because most of us have a Z.

Another point is that what I would pay would depend entirely on the car being sold. If Kevin Bristow put his ex-works car on the market for £50k I'd snap his hand off. If Fred Blogs put a rotten 2+2 on the market I wouldn't pay £5k for it.

 

[SeanDezart]

Looking around at specs, conditions and prices, I'd probably be looking at between £18 and £30k and then expecting to throw more at it to get it to the spec I'd want.....unless either :

a) I went from scratch with a clean import

b) saw a car +/- how I'd like it ready done

But does that help you ?

 

[status]

Someone nicked it for its fur,did it have a dice hanging from the mirror,48k,I'm laughing my nuts off

 

[SeanDezart]

..........I'm laughing my nuts off

Doris says your pair are hanging off your own mirror.