Samuri 240Z £110,000 (est)

Mr Ex Jnr

Club Member
I saw 240z at donny, look nice zed but no mention on samuri eu website about it, and I fort It should have stack of history paperwork and I have a letter from spike confirming that it a samuri

can't find anything about it or any old photos

if I was buying it I would like paperwork from spike confirming it is a samuri and it history got have some if been took it racing
 

Rob Gaskin

Treasurer
Staff member
Site Administrator
Takes more than just paint to be this special

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Jay, like Samuri 240 I too would like to see details of what makes this car so special because I can not understand the Auction House's estimate.

Who was Jack Phare, I noticed you have tried to find out too:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143799

I used to watch Modsports races in the 70's and I can't recall that name. It would be good to know of him and any results with that car?

Even if the car was originally raced by James Hunt I don't think an Estimate of £120k would be appropriate. We will see what it sells for and you may prove us wrong.
 

jaydeescuba

Well-Known Forum User
What ? :confused: Please elaborate.
Ok so Race Head Services were the earliest conversions Spike did - this was done a year before Big Sams storming '74 season(also there was more love in the first 10 compared to the last ten maybe? ?)
This was used as a Sprint car - hence the low mileage...It wouldn't have loads from the second owner either as he worked away for months at a time and only rarely used it.
It was then garaged for better part of 30 years.
How much history should it have? There is a photo in the original thread from the early 80's, which was from the previous owner.

Hope that helps

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jaydeescuba

Well-Known Forum User
I saw 240z at donny, look nice zed but no mention on samuri eu website about it, and I fort It should have stack of history paperwork and I have a letter from spike confirming that it a samuri

can't find anything about it or any old photos

if I was buying it I would like paperwork from spike confirming it is a samuri and it history got have some if been took it racing
Samuri Web site is in need of update,they were made aware in Dec 2014,and the list has "shuffled 3 times since.
Discrepancies with the listing order are another issue.
We have authentication from Spike - letters and emails,confirming it was Sprinted-not raced. All the original Janspeed exhaust,ap brakes, 73 Wolfrace alloys,competition chassis strengthening plates, Tokico suspension etc on a par with FFA, and he remembers a young Jack Phare coming to the workshop, with his dad. I believe his words were this is "a very early and very original car" and he thinks it looks amazing -
Also the only 2 recorded keepers were lady owners - very short ownership history and provenance.

My question to you guys questioning the value is - show me another comparable example -
What's FFA196L worth? Then look at the mileage...
What's Big Sam worth? Then look at how much of Big Sam is "Original" from the conversion
How much is John Haynes Museum one worth?
I heard of one selling in Europe for €400000 tho I couldn't verify that.
This is not just one of 75 Samuri conversions - I have seen the work as it was being done and helped with whatever I could to be part of the story...and it is an amazing one.
There really ISN'T another one like this. I know - I've scoured the country looking.
If any of you were to come and inspect it I think you'll have trouble finding fault with it...
It's originality or it's spec or it's condition.
And if you could drive it you couldn't fault it's performance either. It SHOULD'VE gone round at Donnington. The video would've been spectacular.
But I hope it doesn't sell. Not for a couple of years maybe.



I want it,and I couldn't care what anyone else thinks of it.
I KNOW it.


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Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
All the original Janspeed exhaust,ap brakes, 73 Wolfrace alloys,competition chassis strengthening plates, Tokico suspension etc on a par with FFA....

Can you elaborate on the quoted "chassis strengthening plates"? What are they, how are they attached and what are they made from?

The mention of 'Tokico' suspension and FFA is interesting. FFA certainly didn't have Tokico suspension when originally built by Spike, and didn't have it after several updates either. The spec of FFA was probably best described as a 'moveable feast' (starting out simply with cut coils, and stepping up a little with KONI inserts later) and it was using a Mangoletsi inlet manifold and Mangoletsi 6-branch exhaust manifold at least through 1974. Before that it was on 5.5j Midland Metallic alloys and pretty much standard brakes (just aftermarket pads) so comparisons with 'FFA spec' are a little nebulous to say the least... Does this car not simply have modern Tokico 'Illumina' adjustable inserts?

jaydeescuba said:
My question to you guys questioning the value is - show me another comparable example

A comparable example of what though? It appears to be a 'cooking' RHS/Samuri converted car - not much different to most of them - that has emerged from a big restoration. The spec appears to be rather mild to say the least, and I think it's the quality of the work done most recently that is the most relevant to potential buyers. I presume this is fully documented, with photos?

jaydesscuba said:
What's FFA196L worth? Then look at the mileage...
What's Big Sam worth? Then look at how much of Big Sam is "Original" from the conversion

Mileage means nothing in this context, sorry.

Comparing the car in question to FFA and Big Sam is a big jump. Both are significant in their own right, but for somewhat different reasons - Big Sam for the whole chain of two (three...) ex-Works rally cars, the inherited pre-Spike European circuit racing history (including an attempt to qualify for the LM24hrs) with Rob Grant, the Anderson/Gathercole era of the Modsports championship and all the subsequent stuff too. FFA was the 'face' of RHS and then Samuri Conversions and got a lot of period press, fondly remembered by many. That has a premium, and certain people will pay for it. You appear to be comparing a Rolling Stone and a Beatle to an ex-member of The Brotherhood of Man. They really aren't in the same league.

jaydesscuba said:
How much is John Haynes Museum one worth?

Not much more than a similar age, similar condition, stock example. Last time I saw it in the flesh it was looking extremely forlorn, so I'd say about £15k-ish. It's nothing special, and it needs a full resto.

jaydeescuba said:
If any of you were to come and inspect it I think you'll have trouble finding fault with it...
It's originality or it's spec or it's condition.

I might have to bite my tongue about the question of "originality", but its spec is certainly nothing special (in common with the vast majority of RHS/Samuri customer cars). Condition I'm sure is great after the resto, and I'm sure its all been done to a high standard. I think the problem is that the auction estimate is unrealistically high, and this is clouding the issue.

An auction estimate of around 30k would be a good starting place, and would be less off-putting to potential buyers (many auction houses give lower than average estimates in order to attract potential bidders). If it got bid higher then all well and good (it needs two competing buyers at the very least to do that) but linking its value to the likes of Big Sam and FFA risks blowing the lid on the whole thing and is - in my opinion at least - misguided, and does not stand up to any close scrutiny.
 

jaydeescuba

Well-Known Forum User
Chassis strengthening using works parts with CA numbers as per competing rally works cars.
It was converted in 1973 by RHS and I believe the weber/janspeed combination came as part of the purchase from them at the time.
I've also not found any other sprint cars that were around at the time, but there is a still image of one taken in 1973 with Spike and the car is still around out there somewhere according to dvla search

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Al Douglas

Club Member
Samuri Web site is in need of update,

This is not just one of 75 Samuri conversions -


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Yes it does, I took mine (No 77) over to Competa last year to see Spike and hooked up with Win Percy in his (No 76) at the same time. (Win's has air Con.....cooool). My 7 year old daughter missed the Sam so much that she made No 78 and I've sent Spike pictures and he loves it!!!

A second hand car, like a house or an antique, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Only the buyer can truly justify the cost. the car my daughter made to me is priceless!
 

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jaydeescuba

Well-Known Forum User
Yes it does, I took mine (No 77) over to Competa last year to see Spike and hooked up with Win Percy in his (No 76) at the same time. (Win's has air Con.....cooool). My 7 year old daughter missed the Sam so much that she made No 78 and I've sent Spike pictures and he loves it!!!

A second hand car, like a house or an antique, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Only the buyer can truly justify the cost. the car my daughter made to me is priceless!
Love that.
Also it's actually only worth between what the buyer is prepared to pay and what the seller is prepared to take. You would not get this car from the current owner for £60k+

Oh and the listing/guide price is what barons believe. They would not list it if they didn't expect it to make it.
I think the 260z at Silverstone earlier this year was under-valued guide price - especially as it sold for 55+k

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Al Douglas

Club Member
Love that.
Also it's actually only worth between what the buyer is prepared to pay and what the seller is prepared to take. You would not get this car from the current owner for £60k+

Oh and the listing/guide price is what barons believe. They would not list it if they didn't expect it to make it.
I think the 260z at Silverstone earlier this year was under-valued guide price - especially as it sold for 55+k

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Couldn't agree more. Yea, No 78 is a bit spesh! :thumbs::D:driving:
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Chassis strengthening using works parts with CA numbers as per competing rally works cars.

The mention of "Works parts" piques my interest. To cut a long story short, there was no such thing as "chassis strengthening" on the Works rally 240Zs. Literally none. It would have been contrary to the regulations.

They had a bolt-on cradle around the engine crossmember which formed some of the mounts for the different types of sump guards that were fitted, and at their rearmost ends the sump guards bolted onto brackets that were welded onto the chassis rails. There were jacking points bolted to the sills (quick-lift jack points front and rear on the earliest cars) but nothing that would strengthen the chassis (unibody) itself. Even the four-point roll-over hoop was a bolt-on part.

So what exactly are these "Works parts" you are referring to, and what are "CA numbers"?
 
Surely anyone with that sort of cash to buy a car would know what they're buying, Barons are quite brave with their description given the potential litigious nature of things now days.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
The car in question was listed 'withdrawn' from today's Baron's auction, but it's still present on their ebay classified ad.
 

JK240

Club Member
The car in question was listed 'withdrawn' from today's Baron's auction, but it's still present on their ebay classified ad.
I noticed that too, it's been the topic of conversation this weekend at Le Mans. What to spend all our money on when this sells and we then obviously sell our cars immediately for similar and/or greater :D:D
Keep your eye on piston heads eh Smaurikid ;)
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
So, what would you buy - would you have another Z and pocket/spend the difference ?

Great. Just what the marque needs. More speculation based on speculation, based on a 'valuation' for something that was demonstrably not what it was being described as.

Onwards and upwards then...
 

JK240

Club Member
Great. Just what the marque needs. More speculation based on speculation, based on a 'valuation' for something that was demonstrably not what it was being described as.

Onwards and upwards then...
Humour, similar to your Samuri part valuation thread, is what we need more of I often think when I visit the forum....:rolleyes:
 
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