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Rear wheel toe in (on one side)
- Thread starter Paul_S
- Start date
Paul I have a set of those bushes unused. However if something is bent it's best to fix it by replacing as you know. However did it get bent though?
I think your first job is to measure everything accurately - not easy I know.
On the picture where you can see the Juke is that extension of the hub downwards supposed to be curved?
I think your first job is to measure everything accurately - not easy I know.
On the picture where you can see the Juke is that extension of the hub downwards supposed to be curved?
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Paul_S
Club Member
Thanks Rob. You are right of course. I think I'm getting to the point where I'll have to strip the other side down to compare. I wish I'd parked the car further away from the other wall now!!
I really hope it's not the hub because I don't know what was done to fit the aftermarket coilover. I can't see how that separates from the hub.
I really hope it's not the hub because I don't know what was done to fit the aftermarket coilover. I can't see how that separates from the hub.
Looking back through the Thread that lower wishbone doesn't seem right. I would think the pins should be parallel. We need some kind soul with a spare to post a pic.
uk66fastback
Club Member
Bit of a Heath Robinson test but is it possible to get two thin rods, place through those spindle pin locations, try and get as parallel as possible and then measure the distance between the rod ends? You're going to have to get another wishbone or measure the other side for sure, as I think that's where the problem is as well.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Also, is the hole through the hub carrier doesn't look centred within the casting. Is this unusual?
It's not that unusual, and as long as the hole for the spindle pin is at the correct angle to the hub centre line (which it would have been to pass inspection when it was made...) then it won't be any kind of factor in your toe-out/in problem. It might affect camber - very marginally - but that's all part of strut height/spring rate/spring installed length etc anyway, so something of a moveable feast.
Most likely culprit for your issue is a bent Transverse Link ('wishbone') and the centre line of the spindle pin connecting the Transverse Link to the hub casting should be parallel to the centre line of the inner bearings.
It's a bit of a faff, but the surest way of isolating the problem in my opinion is to swap the Transverse Links over side-to-side. They are not handed (you just flip them over) and if your toe-out problem miraculously moves from one side to the other then you will know for sure that you've got a bent/twisted Transverse Link. As I say, it's a faff, but it's labour only and it'll certainly help you to isolate the problem component(s).
It's rare for the hub castings to bend, and yours look OK to me from the photos posted. Any big impact would tend to hurt the weakest link first, and that's the Transverse Link. It can't see any obvious impact damage from the photos but a good hard whack in the 'right' direction can twist them.
Paul if it helps at all I have my OEM rear control arms and struts sitting in the workshop somewhere having fitted my TTT control arms which I can take photos of for comparison? Not sure if I have new spindle pins that I could insert for reference or not though. Let me know if that is of any help...
Paul_S
Club Member
Funnily enough I just sent you a PM before reading this sir!
uk66fastback
Club Member
Not so sure photos would help Woody, but accurate measurements would surely help ... !
Paul_S
Club Member
I've just finished taking off the other control arm and am too knackered to investigate any further tonight.
I did rest one on the other and the early indication is that they don't look very different. I'd be happier if I could see an obvious difference! I'll get them on the bench and do some measuring tomorrow all being well. It might look quite different when I put the spindle pins back in.
When I removed the first arm I loosened off the inner bolts but I didn't do that tonight. This meant the transverse link sprung out a little towards the rear of the car when the control arm was released (it's an aftermarket item, see some pics early in this post). I can't say for certain if the offside would have done that. I am aware that these need to be tightened up once the weight is on the wheels.
I think the next thing to do is measure the control arms as accurately as possible and take a good look around the rest of the suspension components. As said above, if all else fails I'll reassemble it all with the control arms switched over.
I really wish I'd parked the car further away from the wall!
I did rest one on the other and the early indication is that they don't look very different. I'd be happier if I could see an obvious difference! I'll get them on the bench and do some measuring tomorrow all being well. It might look quite different when I put the spindle pins back in.
When I removed the first arm I loosened off the inner bolts but I didn't do that tonight. This meant the transverse link sprung out a little towards the rear of the car when the control arm was released (it's an aftermarket item, see some pics early in this post). I can't say for certain if the offside would have done that. I am aware that these need to be tightened up once the weight is on the wheels.
I think the next thing to do is measure the control arms as accurately as possible and take a good look around the rest of the suspension components. As said above, if all else fails I'll reassemble it all with the control arms switched over.
I really wish I'd parked the car further away from the wall!
Paul_S
Club Member
Just re-reading this again (thanks for the link) I'm drawn to this part:
Given this was written by someone in the US and reversing the passenger Vs driver side it sounds like what I experienced when I dismantled mine tonight. Something else to check...
Given this was written by someone in the US and reversing the passenger Vs driver side it sounds like what I experienced when I dismantled mine tonight. Something else to check...
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Given that the front inboard bearings of the Transverse Links are in a fixed position (sandwiched between the bearing saddles in the bodyshell and the one-piece crossmember which clamps them in position) I can't see how they can move much at that end. A rear inboard bearing would need to move substantially outwards - towards the wheelarch - in order to give a noticeable toe-in situation like yours. I can't see how it is possible for that to happen without giving noticeable toe-out on the opposite wheel, as - again - there's a crossmember holding the bearings in position.
If there is some resistance/'spring' in the aftermarket rear ARB noticed when detaching it, I would suggest this is probably more a knock-on symptom than a cause.
If the hub casting itself was twisted (at the Transverse Link spindle pin area?) I would think it would give a noticeable amount of stiction in bump/rebound motion? In order for it to move freely the Transverse Link would have to be bent accordingly - leaving the spindle pin axis no longer parallel to the bearings at the inner end. Which should be measurable/detectable...
I can't see how a strut tube mis-aligned when welding it on as part of an aftermarket conversion would give a rear toe-in or toe-out situation? Obviously it's no good and they need to be aligned properly, but I think it would mainly affect camber. The strut top mount swivels, so will adapt itself to the 'right' position fore-and-aft wise (caster) even if the strut tube is wonky. Side-to-side (camber) is another matter.
I think if the hub is attached to the strut a little low at the front and high at the rear, when the hub is brought into line with the transverse link you'd be rotating the hub forward and in. But I could be wrong - I'm not very good at thinking in 3d
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
But unless the Transverse Link was bent/twisted in sympathy, you'd get that 'stiction' I mentioned in my previous post, no?
It's fairly difficult to put some of this into the written word. I wish we were all sitting next to the car in question...
Yes I think there would be stiction, but perhaps the bushes would wear quickly to tolerate it?
As you said earlier, swapping the transverse link over to the other side will be very telling and is prob the best next step.
Paul_S
Club Member
Before I post some updates I'd just like to say thanks to all for their input on this thread. Albrecht - I really wish you were all sitting round the car!!
OK, so I found the arms very tricky to measure. They seemed very similar when I sat one on the other though. In the end I made up (rather shoddy!) jig to see if the pins aligned. Here is the arm from the good side:
And here is the one from the wonky side:
I made some more detailed markings around the spindle pins and proved the two arms are the same. So that's not the problem...
So I removed the strut so I could take a better look at the hub and attempt to measure it.
Based on the assumption that the hub must be parallel to the spindle pin I did my best to measure it using a straight edge held parallel to hub and measuring down to the spindle pin. I did this for each end of the pin. I spun the hub around and measured the distance a few times.
The difference between the 2 distances was consistently 6mm. As a double check, I also took measurements from the rear of the hub with the same results.
To be 100% certain I measured the other hub & spindle pin in situ on the car and it had an even spacing.
So it seems I have a bent hub - full marks to johnymd!
OK, so I found the arms very tricky to measure. They seemed very similar when I sat one on the other though. In the end I made up (rather shoddy!) jig to see if the pins aligned. Here is the arm from the good side:
And here is the one from the wonky side:
I made some more detailed markings around the spindle pins and proved the two arms are the same. So that's not the problem...
So I removed the strut so I could take a better look at the hub and attempt to measure it.
Based on the assumption that the hub must be parallel to the spindle pin I did my best to measure it using a straight edge held parallel to hub and measuring down to the spindle pin. I did this for each end of the pin. I spun the hub around and measured the distance a few times.
The difference between the 2 distances was consistently 6mm. As a double check, I also took measurements from the rear of the hub with the same results.
To be 100% certain I measured the other hub & spindle pin in situ on the car and it had an even spacing.
So it seems I have a bent hub - full marks to johnymd!
Paul_S
Club Member
So now I need to make a decision on how to resolve this.
I suppose what I should do is replace the hub casting but a few things put me off that idea:
I could buy those TTT adjustable arms to work around the problem. But it would be a work-around (and pricey).
I could buy a set of new coilovers with integrated hubs which would be a proper fix - but that would be even more expensive.
I guess I'm heading towards the TTT arms at the moment.
I suppose what I should do is replace the hub casting but a few things put me off that idea:
- I'd have to source a replacement one (I guess you can't buy them new?) and there is a risk it might also be bent
- My Arizona coilover is welded to the casting and there is a risk it will be damaged during the switch
- I have no skills or equipment to even attempt 2!
I could buy those TTT adjustable arms to work around the problem. But it would be a work-around (and pricey).
I could buy a set of new coilovers with integrated hubs which would be a proper fix - but that would be even more expensive.
I guess I'm heading towards the TTT arms at the moment.