So what engine capacity/spec do we reckon this is then?
It's listed as 2799cc 290 bhp.
It's listed as 2799cc 290 bhp.
-
The Z Club relies on the support of it's paid members - join the club or renew your membership here.
Rally replica on Ebay
- Thread starter JK240
- Start date
Not sure I should really pass comment Rob......wouldn’t want to be accused of taking the p*ss 
And just to dwell on that a little
Theres p*ss taking and then theres informed critique based on experiance (maybe with a hint of sarcasm)
Like it or not (I don't really care either way) my scepticism of any unsupported HP figure, is born out of doing more rolling road time than anyone on this forum (unless someone on here owns one), seeing some of the unprofessional/unskilled practices used, juxtaposed against the inevitable forum posts of people who have visited rolling roads and come out with figures that can be described as "optimistic" at best.
Yes I know there are excellent examples of high HP L6 big bore engines with credible figures reaching well over 350HP but would these be suitable for a rally car....no, in as much as you wouldn’t put an F1 engine in a dump truck, they have a "run life" in the region of hours, not hundreds or even thousands of hours.
High HP L6 engines require big stable bores, big compression, extreme valve gear and aggressive cams, non of which are a friend to endurance engines.
Anyway on with a little speculation its a bit of fun at the end of the day
If its a 2.8 with all the bells and whistles then 250-270 is on the cards (just shy of 100 HP per litre)...maybe 290 is a little optimistic, the config needs to be known.
What ever the spec it would need a very well optimised inlet tract, a really nice head, with flow bench derived figures, high compression (13:1+) possibly intruded crown pistons, a cam that breaths well (310 degree duration + with lift in the region of 600 thou+ and cam overlap in excess of 4.5mm) a decent exhaust system that maintains gas speed
The cylinder head will be a nice closed chamber design, (poss a welded N42 or a P90)
With a set of 45 or 48's bolted on.
.
And just to dwell on that a little
Theres p*ss taking and then theres informed critique based on experiance (maybe with a hint of sarcasm
)Like it or not (I don't really care either way) my scepticism of any unsupported HP figure, is born out of doing more rolling road time than anyone on this forum (unless someone on here owns one), seeing some of the unprofessional/unskilled practices used, juxtaposed against the inevitable forum posts of people who have visited rolling roads and come out with figures that can be described as "optimistic" at best.
Yes I know there are excellent examples of high HP L6 big bore engines with credible figures reaching well over 350HP but would these be suitable for a rally car....no, in as much as you wouldn’t put an F1 engine in a dump truck, they have a "run life" in the region of hours, not hundreds or even thousands of hours.
High HP L6 engines require big stable bores, big compression, extreme valve gear and aggressive cams, non of which are a friend to endurance engines.
Anyway on with a little speculation its a bit of fun at the end of the day
If its a 2.8 with all the bells and whistles then 250-270 is on the cards (just shy of 100 HP per litre)...maybe 290 is a little optimistic, the config needs to be known.
What ever the spec it would need a very well optimised inlet tract, a really nice head, with flow bench derived figures, high compression (13:1+) possibly intruded crown pistons, a cam that breaths well (310 degree duration + with lift in the region of 600 thou+ and cam overlap in excess of 4.5mm) a decent exhaust system that maintains gas speed
The cylinder head will be a nice closed chamber design, (poss a welded N42 or a P90)
With a set of 45 or 48's bolted on.
.
Looks like a decent car to me, but overpriced in my opinion. Like most say, it´s not a rally car. I´ve seen a lot of Rally 240Z´s over here in Belgium (Ypres) and there is a lot of difference. Its more like a "rally look-a-like".
However, it´s a good base to start with (of course I live in LHD country), if you want to make it a rally car. Of course, pictures don´t say much, you have to see it in real life.
The main problem I find with these cars, that you have to start with something that the PO´(s) have already started, I´m guessing, but I think everyone here wants to have a clean original 240-260z, and then modify it to their needs, be it rally,race, street or original.
I am an IT technician, and I compare it with this analogy:
You may buy a second-hand PC, which suits your needs and starts up in windows, but you´ll format the hard-drive anyway, just to be sure
However, it´s a good base to start with (of course I live in LHD country), if you want to make it a rally car. Of course, pictures don´t say much, you have to see it in real life.
The main problem I find with these cars, that you have to start with something that the PO´(s) have already started, I´m guessing, but I think everyone here wants to have a clean original 240-260z, and then modify it to their needs, be it rally,race, street or original.
I am an IT technician, and I compare it with this analogy:
You may buy a second-hand PC, which suits your needs and starts up in windows, but you´ll format the hard-drive anyway, just to be sure
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Is 110 per litre THAT difficult to achieve in an endurance race engine for example ?
rallymanDP
Well-Known Forum User
Don't forget, Sean, that we are here talking about an Engine which was designed in the 60's as a mass-market Production Power plant, and not a more modern one which has come about as the result of the subsequent expenditure of many millions in Technical development and materials Technology.
Indeed, we tend to discuss power figures in a far too generic manner without factoring in the engine format, R&D, budgets, technology etc
Yes it is, its difficult to achieve in any naturally aspirated L6Sean said:
and required significant effort and expense......You can count them on the fingers of one hand for Europe
Theres probably quiet a few in Japan from of course Kameari, Grit tune, and privateers
A few dozen in the US from Rebello, and some of the SCCA racers etc
To try and understand how difficult it is, consider the Honda S2000 engine, it is recognised as one of the most reliable and technically advanced production engines on the planet making around 120HP per litre, but at what cost both financially and in terms of design, for instance the engine development budget would have been in the many many millions if not higher and whilst making 240HP it doesnt make a lot of torque instead it uses RPM's to make a headline HP figure (a la F1) it has a crossflow design, lots of cams pushing lots of valves (volumetric efficiency) it has extreamly well designed inlet tracts yielding port efficiencies 25% higher than the best L6 head out there, state of the art fuel injection and electronics controlling everything and so on.
OK so thats a mass produced car, but look at some of the high end NA Porches (GT3 RS 4.0 etc) making around 125 HP per litre, theres more titanium and ceramic in there than the space shuttle and its effectively a road legal competition car with an engine rebuild costing many 10's of £ thousands
Anyway Sean, looks like your moving to a new induction and exhaust setup soon ehh
Should easily get you above 240HP
presumably it would have to come over here to be built and setup so why not drop off at the drag strip and test it
Last edited by a moderator:
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Not sure I should really pass comment Rob......wouldn’t want to be accused of taking the p*ss
And just to dwell on that a little
Theres p*ss taking and then theres informed critique based on experiance (maybe with a hint of sarcasm
Like it or not (I don't really care either way) my scepticism of any unsupported HP figure, is born out of doing more rolling road time than anyone on this forum (unless someone on here owns one), seeing some of the unprofessional/unskilled practices used, juxtaposed against the inevitable forum posts of people who have visited rolling roads and come out with figures that can be described as "optimistic" at best.
Yawn.......
I think you know what I'm talking about Steve. Any prospective purchaser with an ounce of common sense would ignore the power figure quoted for the engine and instead concentrate on its character. The way it delivers whatever power it delivers is far more important than what's written down on a piece of paper.
These cars were sold with a 'fake' power figure when new, but everyone still quotes it. Seems like they believe it, too.
I know exactly what you are talking about, Alan and accept that there will always be creative licence somewhere in the chain.
But in as much as knowing and understanding the minutiae surrounding our cars is a fundamental part of you, I thrive on the science surrounding the engine and the gathering of accurate information, whether it is good or bad......pedantic.....if you like yes.
If I have learnt one thing, its that the sort of numbers we are talking about are not easy or cheap to come by and can't be achieved by bolting bits together, they are the sum of a matched set, carefully planned and assembled, this renders most high HP claims as bogus, there are many people out there (the majority) that do take these figures as gospel, this results in natural compulsion for me to draw attention to any inaccuracies, the internet is full of poor and unreliable data, we don’t need any more, to me its borderline fraud and I find it distasteful, am I on a quest to put the world to rights…. no, but wherever possible I like to ensure that people are presented with the facts.
Sorry it’s a bad habit I have, but as an engineer I know of no other perspective.
Anyway I digress, this thread is about an interesting car/concept any discussion about the engine from my perspective is over and done with.
But in as much as knowing and understanding the minutiae surrounding our cars is a fundamental part of you, I thrive on the science surrounding the engine and the gathering of accurate information, whether it is good or bad......pedantic.....if you like yes.
If I have learnt one thing, its that the sort of numbers we are talking about are not easy or cheap to come by and can't be achieved by bolting bits together, they are the sum of a matched set, carefully planned and assembled, this renders most high HP claims as bogus, there are many people out there (the majority) that do take these figures as gospel, this results in natural compulsion for me to draw attention to any inaccuracies, the internet is full of poor and unreliable data, we don’t need any more, to me its borderline fraud and I find it distasteful, am I on a quest to put the world to rights…. no, but wherever possible I like to ensure that people are presented with the facts.
Sorry it’s a bad habit I have, but as an engineer I know of no other perspective.
Anyway I digress, this thread is about an interesting car/concept any discussion about the engine from my perspective is over and done with.
Throttleton
Well-Known Forum User
What is the real figure for the stock 240 engine??
Can you explain for a novice without being to tech, ie is the real figure say 10% less than Nissan claim?
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
The engine only will be over then back again - the rest including many other car mods will be done here. I don't currently feel the motivation to 'test' it - as my Count stated, it's more about engine character and not a pi**sing contest which I find rather vulgar :
140.55 mph terminal speed (standing start) Verified at Bruntingthorpe
12.4532 @ 111.9mph 1/4 mile verified at Santa Pod
Fastest and quickest class 1 S30 in the UK .....built not bought
rallymanDP
Well-Known Forum User
Well said, Skiddy, about the credibility of the printed word.
There are a lot of people who believe anything written in print - whether on t'Internet or in magazines, and if you don't immediately contradict the lies and false claims, then they become accepted as Gospel by the majority.
One of the bid drawbacks to the Internet is that anyone can write the biggest load of ********, and get away with it. The classic example must be some of the stuff you read on E-bay - surely a Liar's Licence, if ever there was one.
On a specific note, the original Engine power for the 'Z' range was always quoted as xxxbhp ( SAE ).
Does this stand for :-
Standard American Exaggeration ?
There are a lot of people who believe anything written in print - whether on t'Internet or in magazines, and if you don't immediately contradict the lies and false claims, then they become accepted as Gospel by the majority.
One of the bid drawbacks to the Internet is that anyone can write the biggest load of ********, and get away with it. The classic example must be some of the stuff you read on E-bay - surely a Liar's Licence, if ever there was one.
On a specific note, the original Engine power for the 'Z' range was always quoted as xxxbhp ( SAE ).
Does this stand for :-
Standard American Exaggeration ?
M
madmarco
I can tell you it's a SOB to acheive in a Z32 NA engine without spending 1000s and 1000s of wonga!
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Modestly put.........but I guess 15 minutes can be expensive and must be exploited.
An example of power bullshit ('cos over here it appears to be worse) :
Datsun nissan 280 zx 1981 coupe 2 places 6cylindre Voitures Alpes-de-Haute-Provence - leboncoin.fr
and I included this car as it appears relevant to the thread :
Datsun 240z Voitures Pyrénées-Orientales - leboncoin.fr
Ian Patmore
Well-Known Forum User
The 290 figure quoted is correct, as it has the dyno graph (if done by Rebello) to prove it. What you are missing is the way bhp is calculated on the west coast of America is different/wrong (depending on how you look at it). So you can't compare the figures quoted there and the UK. By my reckoning, this engine would show somewhere around 240bhpish on a good Uk dyno. Still not to be sniffed at for its engine size and as Alan says, would have very usable, especially if got a 4.1/4.3 ratio diff (though I don't think so).
There seems to a general whiff of "fake/ridicule" of engine performance figures on here when Rebello are mentioned. Boiled down to in car useage, as Sean is finding out the hard way that his engine/car can't keep up with Sylvian's Rebello powered 240z (hence why Sean is going to try the different induction/exhaust to try and squeeze a few more horses out- so he can keep up)
Rob also alluded to Willie Robertsons (sp) Rebello to be a flyer, Stefans is a race winner, mine is no slouch, and another Rebello powered 240Z will/is on the block. Good reliable engines, producing good power and torque (on whatever dyno measured on), as a package that makes them very drivable and an utter pleasure.
Get used to it.
There seems to a general whiff of "fake/ridicule" of engine performance figures on here when Rebello are mentioned. Boiled down to in car useage, as Sean is finding out the hard way that his engine/car can't keep up with Sylvian's Rebello powered 240z (hence why Sean is going to try the different induction/exhaust to try and squeeze a few more horses out- so he can keep up)
Rob also alluded to Willie Robertsons (sp) Rebello to be a flyer, Stefans is a race winner, mine is no slouch, and another Rebello powered 240Z will/is on the block. Good reliable engines, producing good power and torque (on whatever dyno measured on), as a package that makes them very drivable and an utter pleasure.
Get used to it.
Ian help me understand that, isnt that like buying a new pair of trousers and saying "my inside leg is 87inches and Oh by the way I have invented my own inch"
The Horse power is a defined unit of work or energy thats 745 watts mechanical or 735 metric
As I understood it horsepower is measured using either the metric standard (DIN or PS), mechanical horsepower without ancillaries (SAE gross) or SAE (Net) all of which will be fairly close, all measured at the crank.
I guess the good news is that if I took my engine to Rebello then by that reconing it should make around 370HP
see here for more detail
http://zclub.net/forum/240z-260z/15712-oh-****-6.html#post143994
The Horse power is a defined unit of work or energy thats 745 watts mechanical or 735 metric
As I understood it horsepower is measured using either the metric standard (DIN or PS), mechanical horsepower without ancillaries (SAE gross) or SAE (Net) all of which will be fairly close, all measured at the crank.
I guess the good news is that if I took my engine to Rebello then by that reconing it should make around 370HP
see here for more detail
http://zclub.net/forum/240z-260z/15712-oh-****-6.html#post143994
Last edited by a moderator:
tel240z
Club Member
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Oh naughty Ian – you scallywag !
Well make your mind up Ging. My “seat of your pants” experience is hardly relevant is it……………but I shouldn’t quote Sylvain too much (bless him) – he’s already blown two dizzys and still can’t get fuel to his carbs through the corners – my engine has done a lot of miles with zero faults so far.
And I don’t agree that I can’t keep up, we’ve only ever run at one circuit together and guess what ? A car is made up of more components like tyre/wheelsize, diff and gearbox ratios – all this is surely irrelevant in your wide experience and bumbling down to collect your Sunday paper : you have no seat of your pants experience Ian so zip it please : you have no idea why I’m changing (not trying – doing) my induction and as previously stated somewhere, probably by Skidden – an engine is a complete package – the change is a part of a bigger plan and the induction change is merely to keep it all efficient. Don’t speculate, guess or patronize – you usually have a better command of your facts.
This plan should come as no surprise, I mentioned it to Skidden during one of our exchanges at the latest – the beginning of this year if not before !
Well make your mind up Ging. My “seat of your pants” experience is hardly relevant is it……………but I shouldn’t quote Sylvain too much (bless him) – he’s already blown two dizzys and still can’t get fuel to his carbs through the corners – my engine has done a lot of miles with zero faults so far.
And I don’t agree that I can’t keep up, we’ve only ever run at one circuit together and guess what ? A car is made up of more components like tyre/wheelsize, diff and gearbox ratios – all this is surely irrelevant in your wide experience and bumbling down to collect your Sunday paper : you have no seat of your pants experience Ian so zip it please : you have no idea why I’m changing (not trying – doing) my induction and as previously stated somewhere, probably by Skidden – an engine is a complete package – the change is a part of a bigger plan and the induction change is merely to keep it all efficient. Don’t speculate, guess or patronize – you usually have a better command of your facts.
This plan should come as no surprise, I mentioned it to Skidden during one of our exchanges at the latest – the beginning of this year if not before !
Throttleton
Well-Known Forum User
So what is the real figure for the stock 240 engine..anyone???
Reason being if I get my (stock) engine built and get it on a rolling road what can I compare it to??
Thanks
Craig
Reason being if I get my (stock) engine built and get it on a rolling road what can I compare it to??
Thanks
Craig
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Ooh, do we win a prize for the nearest - like pin a tail on the donkey ?
129 DIN
129 DIN