Rally 240Z with FIA papers on eBay

[Legendary5]

Great pictures Alan!!!!!

 

[Mr.G]

Thanks Alan!

 

[robbeddington]

No. 13 - unlucky for some ...

Albrecht, at least this thread and the questions raised have resulted in a partial climbdown by the seller, and any unsuspecting purchaser would certainly be on his/her guard, which was not the case before.

I've been involved in similar arguments over a number of original Ford GT40 misrepresentations where in one instance only the chassis plate survived. One 'restored' car recently sold for over £1m where the chassis plate was one of just a few remaining parts. The car was actually bulldozed into a ditch and buried many years ago, after the place it was stored in caught fire. In my book that's fraud with a capital F.

The trouble is that the auction houses appear to take the misrepresented story at face value, presumably with an eye on the commission. The longer the myth is perpetuated, the more the true facts get distorted. But photos don't lie ...

Albrecht, we will have to meet up (again) in your castle some time.

Cheers mate.

Rob
2 x Datsun Roadsters - anyone want one?
BMW 3.0 CSL (Batmobile kit)

 

[datsun dave]

Rob i love the old CSL Batmobile i also have a classic BMW car

 

[SeanDezart]

Sean,
I sometimes wonder whether you are living in a different universe to me.....

You've only just realised that not all Works 240Z / 260Z rally cars were RHD, but you've already made the assumption that they were all LHD.



There were both RHD and LHD versions built. If you want to know why I suggest that you might like to give some thought to where they were built to be driven, and who drove most of them.......

Got it yet?........

Dear Count,

I'm not on another planet - I just have a life asides from Zeds and it's VERY busy right now

That doesn't explain my clueless thought that all works' rally cars were R and/or LHD ! It appeared logic to me that since the cars were designed in a RHD country that they too would be RHD !

I'm maybe not inquisitive enough but it seems ludicrously expensive to run a few very specific cars through a production line to make specific LHD specials ! Did the Ford Escorts get built L and RHD too then ?

So, Nissan made some LHD works cars to allow their drivers who were used to driving LHD cars and especially those driving in LHD countrys' rallyes more comfortable - brilliant, typical of the Japanese to sieze upon an idea and exploit it !

Am I ashamed of earlier remarks ? Yes. Do I hang my head down low ? Yes.

But I've learnt something so thanks to you and Guusje !

BTW, I hate those front indicators on this 'works' car - quite the wrong period, no ?

 

[Albrecht]

Albrecht, we will have to meet up (again) in your castle some time.

Rob,
Long time no see.
You are welcome at the 'castle' any time, sir!

CSL!!!

 

[Albrecht]

Dear Count,
I'm not on another planet - I just have a life asides from Zeds and it's VERY busy right now

I thought you were half joking, Sean. Never can tell with you .

I was a bit harsh I think. Sorry...........

It appeared logic to me that since the cars were designed in a RHD country that they too would be RHD !

Well, the very first batch of purpose-built 240Z Works rally cars were RHD ( and they were built 'for' the 1970 RAC Rally ) but Nissan brought an LHD Z over to France for Aaltonen to test just after the 1970 Monte Carlo Rally. Notice that we are talking about the best part of 10 months between those two events........

He did a lot of mileage up and down the Monte stages in that car after the rally had finished, and - so I hear - mentioned that the position of the handbrake was not ideal for the LHD configuration. After that, all of the LHD Works cars had their handbrake levers re-located to the LEFT side of the trans tunnel.

Interesting, isn't it?

I'm maybe not inquisitive enough but it seems ludicrously expensive to run a few very specific cars through a production line to make specific LHD specials ! Did the Ford Escorts get built L and RHD too then ?

Well, the RHD Works cars ( including the PZRs and 240ZRs ) that were RHD were very special and miles away from a standard bodyshell anyway - so the RHD and LHD thing is a side issue when compared to all the other special stuff they were doing.

And yes, the Works Escorts came in both LHD and RHD configuration.

 

[robbeddington]

Albrecht

I look forward to making the trip. Are you still on your old email address?

Re the CSL, I would have gone for one of your earlier celebrated designs (before your great work on the 240Z ... sorry, couldn't resist), like the BMW 507 or 503 Cabriolet, but I couldn't afford them, so I went for this instead ...

As for Datsun Rally cars, I'm still after info/photos (especially detail photos of the under bonnet, boot and interior) of the LHD Fairlady 2000 Roadsters from the 1968/1969 Monte Carlo and Tulip Rallies, especially the 1968 Hannu Mikkola 66 car. Any ideas?

Any help appreciated.

Rob
2 x Datsun Roadsters (anyone want one?)
BMW 3.0 CSL (Batmobile kit)

 

[SeanDezart]

Rob, it is my favourite BM you have there with the wonderful pidgeon splatter at the rear, don't forget to email me your address, I'd like to meet up if poss when I'm over next !

 

[Mr.G]

Rob your BMW is AWESOME!! Any more pics please?

 

[robbeddington]

Sean - address etc emailed. Speak soon mate.

As for the CSL, spec and pics as follows:

3.5 litre motor built by TWR, triple Webers per early Alpina race Coupes, Getrag box, lsd, Alpina suspension & wheels, S/s exhaust, original BM front/roof/tail spoilers, ally bonnet/doors, etc, etc.

Not quite as it came out of the factory but fun all the same.

 

[SeanDezart]

Yummee !

Sort of Z like (spartan but ready to use) except Teutonic !

 

[Albrecht]

Albrecht
I look forward to making the trip. Are you still on your old email address?

Hi Rob,
I'm on the 'dircon' address, if that's the one you have?

The CSL is gorgeous..........

As for Datsun Rally cars, I'm still after info/photos (especially detail photos of the under bonnet, boot and interior) of the LHD Fairlady 2000 Roadsters from the 1968/1969 Monte Carlo and Tulip Rallies, especially the 1968 Hannu Mikkola 66 car. Any ideas?
Any help appreciated.
Rob

I don't think I have anything on the Monte and Tulip cars that you haven't already got. I always keep you in mind when I'm hunting though......

I'll be out of the country from 29th Nov. to 8th Dec.
Maybe get in touch when I'm back?

 

[dave cottom]

Going back to the original thread subject. As a 'replica', what is this rally car's true worth based on it having a good condition 1970 shell and some original parts e.g. 'magnesium wheels and works front seats'. Has anyone recently visited the car itself and can confirm the overall condition ?

 

[Albrecht]

Dave,

If you are seriously considering purchase, I can give you my opinion on the car. I have inspected it closely, and have taken a fair few photos too.

PM me if you are serious.........

But remember that this car is being sold as something that it categorically is not. A great premium is being set by the 'identity' and history of chassis no. 'HS30-00026', and the price that the vendor is hoping to achieve is linked to that........

Yes it has some ex-Works parts attached to it - but this is basically a standard 1970 Fairlady Z road car, and has the VIN number to match. The advertised paperwork does not match the bodyshell.

Prospective purchasers will have to make their own minds up as to what such a thing is worth, and then see if what they are willing to pay matches the price that the vendor wants to achieve.

 

[dave cottom]

Albrecht, I here what you say. I'm not serious based on how it is being sold but at the end of the day it must have a value based on what it actually is i.e. an early production Z with a decent shell and mechanics plus original rally wheels. If I purchased the car then I would change back its identify to the original VIN identiity. However, based on my limited knowledge of the car, I would only expect to pay between £6-10k ?

 

[Albrecht]

Albrecht, I here what you say. I'm not serious based on how it is being sold but at the end of the day it must have a value based on what it actually is i.e. an early production Z with a decent shell and mechanics plus original rally wheels.

Dave,
I agree that it must have a certain value, and as a mid-1970 production Fairlady Z ( I think it started out as a 'Z-L' model ) in fairly decent and solid condition its market value really ought to be a reflection of what it would cost to source a similar condition car in Japan. That might put it in the £5,000 to £10,000 bracket, depending on the 'right' buyer coming along.

I'd say that the obvious ex-Works parts on the car ( wheels, seats, cage, belts, steering wheel, tank, manifolds etc etc ) would have more value being split from the car and sold on their own merit.

If I purchased the car then I would change back its identify to the original VIN identiity. However, based on my limited knowledge of the car, I would only expect to pay between £6-10k ?

You will notice that the eBay vendor has not mentioned the V5 that relates to the VIN of the Fairlady bodyshell ( S30-02552 ). However, this was amongst the paperwork that could be viewed with the cars at the Bonhams auction, and presumably ( but not definitely ) might be sold with the car. Which would make it relatively easy to re-assign the correct identity to the car.........

However, what is blocking this is the fact that the vendor has for some years now been trying to sell the car as the ex-Works 240Z rally car 'HS30-00026', and is hoping to achieve a high price for that. I believe I remember that the Bonhams auction estimate was '£15,000 ~ £25,000', and the car got bid up to around £8,500 before it went 'unsold' and they moved on to the next lot in the sale.

As I've said before, I reckon this car has a much better chance to sell if the vendor faces up to the reality that 'HS30-00026' is essentially only a V5 'identity' and a pile of ex-Works parts.

 

[dave cottom]

Agreed. He needs to come to terms with what he actually ownes and not what he thinks he ownes. Can't see it being sold otherwise. You're right about selling off the rally parts separately. I guess the wheels alone would fetch in excess of a grand if Ebay'd.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

I've been watching this with interest and it has now reached as much as I would be prepared to pay, bought 'as seen' and not as advertised.

I notice that the bidder who took it from £5k to £7k was 'jbrad999'. In the description a J Bradburn has been linked with this car, maybe he wants to be re-united with it!

 

[Mr.G]

Have you all noticed the last question on 28.11.05, looks like someone else disagrees with sweeping statements of the cars former provenance.