Porsche v 240Z

Woody928

Events Officer
Staff member
Club Member
:lurk: These threads do make me chuckle. I'm actually of the opinion less is more with old 911's. I love this car for instance, very jealous of the owner:


It's either that or I'd have to go full outlaw on one instead. Unfortunately the way the market has gone and my finances its nothing but a pipe dream. Stereotypes aside I think most would agree that both present good platforms for making very capable road cars subject to how much tweaking you want to do. These two seem to agree on that:

 

johnymd

Club Member
I absolutely love the red car in the first video. Even down to the steel wheels. The only thing that would improve it would be shabby paintwork :)
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
If it's to be eggs with eggs, I'd like to point out that '240Z' didn't mean just *one* thing (there were some pretty radical differences between sub-variants, markets and regional spec) and it would be fairer to quote 'S30-series Z range' and a chosen period for comparison. I choose 1969 through 1973 as an example.

I think it's important to remember the variations of the '240Z' specs. Anybody looking to buy a good condition 240Z these days - and that includes any DDK forum refugees - might well be forced to look at ex-USA market cars as their best options economically. That means an arguably softened-up and dumbed-down spec that might well require a fair bit of modification to bring it up to expectations. Worth bearing in mind.

Alan - you're surfing the waves, one minute down then up high - no stability to your 'agruments ! And anyone buying a clean-chassis Porsche will certainly be looking to import (same as) from the States.

Firstly you says that the 911 was comprised of various models so we shouldn't just say 911 vs 240Z (but you forget to mention your usual and correct discours that the 240Z is different depending upon which destination market and even then what does '240Z' mean - it should be S30........THEN you remind us all again of that same fact - but ultimately you're just sharing your very personal point of view - you like 911Ss. And this from an early age (I was but 5 in 1970). Ok but life is choices and you could have had one and still can if you empty your garages..............but you won't so ipso facto - the Porker isn't good enough for you to drop owning a Z ! But your liking a 911S has no relevance in this discussion - sorry.


And no-one has yet mentioned the 914s and 914/6s !

You've compared the 240Z at 2.4 litres with the 911 range at 2.2 litres in 1971. Well, in 1969 (the year the S30-series Z range was launched) the 911 range was pegged at 2.0 litre capacity. By 1971 it was 2.2 litres - as you have pointed out - but by 1972 the 911 range had 2.4 litres and in 1973 the Carrera RS model debuted with a 2.7 litre engine and 210bhp. .



A modest 'article' published on the Datsun Europe FB page 12x montbhs ago :



Sean Dezartà Datsun Europe Cars & Parts & Tech
16 avril 2017 ·

Porsche 911 vs. Fairlady (Z)

Once upon a time there was a 356 but it wasn't very sportive. Then came along Nissan with the (export) Datsun SPL310 with a similar (1500cc) engine and then the SPL311 (1600cc) - NOW we're rocking but Porsche fought back with the 911 2.0. Never fear, Nissan too can make 2.0s and behold - the SRL311 - the giant killer !
Porsche thinks and produces the 911S but Nissan, after the merger with Prince shows off the Z432 and the (export) 240Z and JDM L20....and Porsche ups the 911s's capacity to 2.2 to match the outperform the S20 and finally reach 2.4 and Efi for 190bhp......JDM Zs are still winning races in Japan in many guises aginst several Porsche models and in GrpIV and V are tackling the prototypes elsewhere.

Back to ground level and dealer forecourts....the 911 L T and E are trying to compete against the lighter SRL311 ...in 1970 against the 240Z (at the same weight) they grow to 2.2 to match the performance, 2years later the cars increase again to 2.4 and between 130-165bhp. In 1973 they up again to 2.7ltr and 148bhp.....topping the 260Z but shortly the 280Z arrives in 1975 with 140bhp (DIN) and sells like crazy !

In 1978, Porsche again up their capacity to be more competitive and it finally is...until 1981 when Nissan exported their 280ZXT with an equivalent 180bhp.

Porsche cruised until 1984 with the unveiling of the 911 Carrera 3.2.....in direct competition with the Z31 300ZXturbo and similar performances.

My point here is to reflect upon the facts that Porsche has consistently reacted to Datsun's (later Nissan badges) sports-cars to stay ahead in their customer's eyes.....Datsun pushed Porsche to become more powerful, faster, more expensive and Datsuns consistently outsold them and where they clashed, out performed them.
Only Porsches ongoing committment to worldwide competition has kept them in the limelight as 'the' reference.......but even Porschistes are beginning to look towards and buy 240Zs now !
1f609.png
;-)
 

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Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Alan - you're surfing the waves, one minute down then up high - no stability to your 'agruments ! And anyone buying a clean-chassis Porsche will certainly be looking to import (same as) from the States.

Firstly you says that the 911 was comprised of various models so we shouldn't just say 911 vs 240Z (but you forget to mention your usual and correct discours that the 240Z is different depending upon which destination market and even then what does '240Z' mean - it should be S30........THEN you remind us all again of that same fact - but ultimately you're just sharing your very personal point of view - you like 911Ss. And this from an early age (I was but 5 in 1970). Ok but life is choices and you could have had one and still can if you empty your garages..............but you won't so ipso facto - the Porker isn't good enough for you to drop owning a Z ! But your liking a 911S has no relevance in this discussion - sorry.

Sean, you missed my point about the (early) 911S. I brought it up as I believed the theoritecal 'choice' between a 240Z and a 996 Carrera 4S was not a like-for-like comparison. I said that the story might be different (for most people) if it was a choice between a 240Z amd a 911S. It's not a straw man.

Yes, anyone looking to buy a good condition 240Z or the contemporary Porsche may need to look to the USA for suitable candidates, as I pointed out. But this adds weight to my point: If you are shopping in the USA market for a 240Z you will have little to no choice on stock specs and it will be the dumbed-down and softened-up single USA market model. If you're looking for a Porsche on the other hand you have a wide choice of models and sub-variants to choose from, so you have a good chance to buy something that doesn't need much - if anything - changed on it to make it suitable for UK and European use.

I think the early 911S is a better all-round sporting driver's car than any stock 240Z, and that's why I cited it as an alternative. The Fairlady Z432 and Fairlady Z432-R on the other hand would give a 2.0 litre 911S a good run for its money dynamically. Porsche could pitch up with a factory hot rod 911R or 911 T/R of course, in which case it would be Good Night Vienna for the Nissans. I've driven several early and late air-cooled 911s, used to own a 2.0 911S a long time ago (briefly) and driven/own all sorts of S30-series Zs, as you know, so I think I have a fairly good chance of knowing what I'm talking about.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Back to ground level and dealer forecourts....the 911 L T and E are trying to compete against the lighter SRL311 ...in 1970 against the 240Z (at the same weight) they grow to 2.2 to match the performance, 2years later the cars increase again to 2.4 and between 130-165bhp. In 1973 they up again to 2.7ltr and 148bhp.....topping the 260Z but shortly the 280Z arrives in 1975 with 140bhp (DIN) and sells like crazy !

In 1978, Porsche again up their capacity to be more competitive and it finally is...until 1981 when Nissan exported their 280ZXT with an equivalent 180bhp.

Porsche cruised until 1984 with the unveiling of the 911 Carrera 3.2.....in direct competition with the Z31 300ZXturbo and similar performances.

My point here is to reflect upon the facts that Porsche has consistently reacted to Datsun's (later Nissan badges) sports-cars to stay ahead in their customer's eyes.....Datsun pushed Porsche to become more powerful, faster, more expensive and Datsuns consistently outsold them and where they clashed, out performed them.
Only Porsches ongoing committment to worldwide competition has kept them in the limelight as 'the' reference.......but even Porschistes are beginning to look towards and buy 240Zs now !
1f609.png
;-)

Sean, I think you should sign up to the DDK forum and post that over there. See what they make of it.

As I've pointed out to you before when you brought up this "Porsche reacted to Nissan" theory, it's not factual. Porsche, as a specialist sports car manufacturer, racing car manufacturer and factory race team consistently outgunned Nissan both in the showroom and on the race track. Unsurprisingly, given circumstances and company philosophies.

Your comparison of Porsche 911 engine sizes with Nissan Z engine sizes is - again, as I have pointed out before - not based on fact. Porsche always - always! - had a more driver-focused, more sporting, more capable, faster, better homologated model available to buy than Nissan. You might get some traction with the theory that Nissan was taking potential buyers of the lesser, more accessible/lower price scale Porsche products for some of the Z's history (mainly between 1971 and 1973) but Porsche was ticking along quite nicely production capacity-wise and kept its focus on making product to satisfy the needs of a certain sector of the market. All of this whilst they were totally dominating the race championships they chose to enter.

Giving Porsche its due isn't to diss Nissan. They were - and still are - two totally different types of company.
 

chrisvega

Well-Known Forum User
That article you quoted Sean, it must be the most Datsuncentric rose tinted prose
ever written and I’m calling :bs:(always wanted to use that one).

911 trying to compete with the SRL311 come on.......really ? In that case the one I have on ebay auction at £6.5k (with no takers yet) must be an absolute sleeper bargain if it is superior to the early 911 cars you would pay £50k plus for today.

Well whilst we can argue all day about which we prefer or is the better car, one thing we can all agree on is that both S30Z and air cooled Porsche of the 60s/70s regardless of flavour, were amongst the best sporting coupes you could buy back in the day and remain so in today’s classic market.

Both cars make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up when you turn the ignition key, butterflies of excitement and anticipation when you find that rare thing in the UK these days, an empty twisting road ahead. Both cars give that all involving driving experience that you only get from an old classic, light years away from the sanitised experience that is modern car ownership.

Soul, yes they have it....... Special....for sure !
 
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SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Porsche always - always! - had a more driver-focused, more sporting, more capable, faster, better homologated model available to buy than Nissan.
So why DID Porsche upgrade their engines sizes when they did , Pure conicidence or to remain on top of the street performance game ?

Chris - yes it is but Porsche have this aura around them and the SRL doesn't.

And yes, I think performance-wise, one can favourably compare the SRL in both twin SU (135hp) and Mikuni (150hp) guises to the early Porsches :

Porsche 911 (1964-1967) 2.0 = 130ch

Sold = 10753

Porsche 911 (1967-1968) L2.0 = 130ch
Porsche 911 (1969) L avec inj became E2.0 = 140ch
Porsche 911 (1967-1969) T2.0 = 110ch
Porsche 911 (1970-1973) T2.2 = 125ch
Porsche 911 (1970-1973) E2.2 = 155ch

Sold = 62402
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Sean, you missed my point about the (early) 911S. I brought it up as I believed the theoritecal 'choice' between a 240Z and a 996 Carrera 4S was not a like-for-like comparison. I said that the story might be different (for most people) if it was a choice between a 240Z amd a 911S. It's not a straw man.

Yes, anyone looking to buy a good condition 240Z or the contemporary Porsche may need to look to the USA for suitable candidates, as I pointed out. But this adds weight to my point: If you are shopping in the USA market for a 240Z you will have little to no choice on stock specs and it will be the dumbed-down and softened-up single USA market model. If you're looking for a Porsche on the other hand you have a wide choice of models and sub-variants to choose from, so you have a good chance to buy something that doesn't need much - if anything - changed on it to make it suitable for UK and European use.

I think the early 911S is a better all-round sporting driver's car than any stock 240Z, and that's why I cited it as an alternative.

I missed your point because you've missed the original question on the other site : Comparing the Datsun 240Z to a 73T hotrod?

The 911S isn't being compared here !

Anyone in the UK importing a USA Porsche might be considering a RHD conversion which wouldn't surprise me reading the bigotry here towards LHD Zs !

You mentioned Porsche racing cars - ok, it wasn't a Z but wasn't there a sedan that competed pretty well against the 906 in Japan albeit with an engine also seen in an S30.
 
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Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Sean,
For what seems like the tenth time, I was replying to this:

Interesting read. I have a 911 (996) that I've had for about 3 years and although I enjoy the car on the rare occasions I actually get to use it if I were to choose which one to part with it never be the Z.
Many reasons, I've put a large part of my life into my Z, it's rarer, it's "cooler", I can work on it and fix it, If I ever sold it I doubt I could replace it. The Porsche is a great car, but it's replaceable any day of the week, I'd struggle to replace the Z with another.
Interestingly, if you were to ask my 2 sons aged 26 and 36 they would both say that they prefer the Z :)
View attachment 29248

See? I don't think it's a very equal comparison. That's why I tried to make the point that if it was a choice between, say, the 240Z and its contemporary 911S, that the choice might not be so simple. Paul disagreed, but that's OK by me. I guess he has a strong emotional attachment to his 240Z.

You're going on about Es, Ts and Ls, but apparently ignoring Ss, Rs, T/Rs, RSs, RSRs and the like. I don't get it. I'd never choose a stock 911E, 911T or 911L over the contemporary S30-series Zs from the 1969 through 1973 period, but an S, R (swoon!), T/R (swoon!) or RS (....!) would be hard to reject. 912 no thanks. 914 no thanks. 914/6 maybe.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Anyone in the UK importing a USA Porsche might be considering a RHD conversion which wouldn't surprise me reading the bigotry here towards LHD Zs !

You mentioned Porsche racing cars - ok, it wasn't a Z but wasn't there a sedan that competed pretty well against the 906 in Japan albeit with an engine also seen in an S30.

For "bigotry" read realism. I think the stock north American market spec cars from the 1969 through 1973 period require some modifications to bring them up to expectations for use in UK and Europe (not least gearing). A factor I think some potential buyers might not be savvy to, and therefore very much worth pointing out to them. Nissan's engineers agreed, by the way...

The Porsche which raced head-to-head with the (Prince!) Skylines in Japan was a lone 904 GTS, essentially a publicity stunt (long story, but Toyota paid for the car) which backfired somewhat when the 904 was crashed in practice and had to be put back together like Humpty Dumpty for the race, in which it was somewhat limping but still won. Those Skylines were running modified SOHC Prince G7 engines, which were never installed in an S30-series chassis, so you're getting the story a bit mangled. Whole thing was a bit of a circus never to be repeated, but it served its purpose and the Prince engineers were then allowed by management to make their own sports racer - the R380 - so that they could race like-for-like.
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Well there we have it - I'm comparing the more basic (although Ts and Es where pretty well specced*) 911s with our basic 240Z and you're chucking out limited production and homologation racing specials.

But all of them, 912 and 914 excepted maybe are way over the price of a well-finished 240Z and THAT is why Porsche, ex-Porsche and potentiel Porsche owners are looking at S30s.

Someone mentioned a shame that prices are rising and someone else said it is a good thing - it IS a good thing and to be encouraged. Value incites care.

*for how much did the 'Le Mans' 2.2 sell ? +$1.3m
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Talking of gearing - when did the 911 sport a 5-speed box ?

Ok on the 904 story - I like the sneaky Toyota angle on it - thanks:EXTRAcool:.

I don't hate Porsches, just saturated and perhaps I'm unlucky over here but it IS seen as a status symbol (and therefore the Z isn't worthy), most owners have them to associate with the race on Sunday syndrome and more than most never drive them over the 50% limit. Cars, sports-cars in particular were conceived to be 'driven', those that don't (imho) aren't car lovers that you're keen to belong to.
 

STEVE BURNS

Club Member
What I dont quite understand is the way everything has changed
It used to be to drive a car because you enjoyed having it but as everybody has got older it seems everybody is more concerned about what the car is worth
Maybe it is an age thing or maybe the "materilistic society" way of life has taken over for everybody
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
What I dont quite understand is the way everything has changed
It used to be to drive a car because you enjoyed having it but as everybody has got older it seems everybody is more concerned about what the car is worth
Maybe it is an age thing or maybe the "materilistic society" way of life has taken over for everybody

In my view simply the more a Z is 'worth', the more care that people will take with them, the more parts that will be available for them and that the simple pleasure of driving them will become easier.
 

Albrecht

Well-Known Forum User
Talking of gearing - when did the 911 sport a 5-speed box ?

Well, certainly a good while before the S30-series Z range went on sale. The old 901 type 'dogleg' box was nice to use, and was standard on 911S models (oh, I mentioned the 911S again...). I believe a 5-speed was a no-cost option on some of the mid-range models in earlier years and a nominal cost extra on the base model. Wasn't the 915 conventional shift pattern 5-speed soon phased in for the larger engined cars?

I'm by no means a 911 'Experten', so ready to be put right on that...
 

SeanDezart

Well-Known Forum User
Source : https://www.total911.com/2014-total-911-photo-of-the-year-award-the-shortlist/

Until the arrival of the Porsche 911T in 1968, the 911 exclusively used a five-speed gearbox. However, the entry level ‘T’ used a four-speed 901/03 shifter, while the 911L and 911S shared the five-speed 901/50 gearbox.

In four-speed form, the gearbox also saw action in the Porsche 911 Turbo,

Source : https://californiamotorsports.net/pages/porsche-915-transmission-specification

72-73 4 speed

915/12

1st gear 11:35

2nd gear 18:32

3rd gear 24:27

4th gear 28:23

Final drive 7:31

74 4 speed

915/16

1st gear 11:35

2nd gear 20:32

3rd gear 25:26

4th gear 29:21

Final drive 7:31



75-77 4 speed

915/16, 915/45, 915/48, 915/49, 915/65, 915/66

1st gear 11:35

2nd gear 20:32

3rd gear 25:27

4th gear 28:23

Final drive 8:31

Sure was around a fair while in plenty of cars.
 

Woody928

Events Officer
Staff member
Club Member
I absolutely love the red car in the first video. Even down to the steel wheels. The only thing that would improve it would be shabby paintwork :)

It really is a stunner that one, I've coveted over a 911 just like that for quite some time now. Sometimes less really is more....
 

jonbills

Membership Secretary
Site Administrator
What kind of Porsche is this?
I’d like one. (Or the 911 on it’s right)
13832f70388bde3ee045232802af7cf3.jpg
 
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