From Smoker to Sssssmokin’!

[AliK]

Thanks for that slap back to reality uncle Huw!

I will indeed remake them out off cupronickel and stop whining

The reason I was asking is that I can see a copper circle inside the calliper hole where the flaring goes into. So I didn’t want to push a harder metal into a softer one that I can’t replace. Now, I’m thinking it may be residue from the failed one I took off - will investigate and report back.

Thankfully I had the copper pipe to help me model / mould into the right shape / dimensions before making the final ones. The cupronickel is a beast to work with - I can’t imagine what the S/S would be like.

BTW I had no idea they were s/s to start with!!! [emoji106] So I’m guessing one of the POs at some point replaced them on all four sides with copper - now you have me thinking about the leak at the bottom of the master cylinder which I told you about the other day. I know my brake lines have been painted silver, so I wonder if the ones from the M/C were replaced with copper also!? [emoji848]

I can see from my own photo that the one from the proportioning valve to the flexible hose is copper - so there is another one to replace!!! In fact, make that two - better buy more pipe and a straightening tool!

At least the sun is shining today!

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Hi Ali, I made mine from copper on my track car. Bought the tubing from Automec.

Huw's advice is sound.

The copper was easy to work with and to form the shape but because of that it will bend if you knock it or press against it when working on your car.

 

[AliK]

Well another day lost but got a couple more things done:

Finally made both sides to the correct dimensions out of cupronickel ...

Thankfully the rest of the pipes from the proportioning valve back are cupro so that’s one blessing. Will have to replace the ones from the valve to the wheel arches as they are defo pure copper.

Drilled out the remaining seized splash guard plate bolts but the tap decided to give up on its way out - at least there was enough sticking out to grip with mole grips.

Started to look at the damaged dust cap on the calliper and took them all off as I discovered rust on every piston of the four! It really never ends hu?

Let’s see how much more slowly I can go tomorrow

 

[toopy]

Before i fitted my re-manufactured calipers, i peeled back all the dust covers and smeared the red rubber grease all over the tops of the pistons and a good coating on the inside of the covers. Im hoping that will minimise surface rust on the piston and stop/reduce the chances of any seizing from lack of miles covered!

 

[toopy]

I sheared the first back plate bolt i tried to remove, after that i painfully slowly only made a quarter to half turn each time, then back for all the other bolts.
Some definitely needed that approach, others were surprisingly free. I left the broken one and only have three bolts in one side now, I cant seem to get on with the whole drilling out thing, it just never seems to work for me!

 

[Rob Gaskin]

To be honest I've never worried about having 'splash guards' on my front brakes. They tend to keep the heat in.

 

[AliK]

That’s a great idea Mr T - would be interesting to see how that works out over time especially with the heat generated there. Worst case it sits inside the rubber or goes into the back of the pads! [emoji106]

3 will be fine - after all, there is no stress in that area.

I tried absolutely everything on mine, including soaking in penetrating oil overnight from both sides and heating but to no avail. These were definitely now parts of the axle!

Interestingly, I find drilling out bolts quite therapeutic. Just start with a much smaller drill bit to get the heads off, file the end flat, then the most important part comes which is to get a centre punch square in the middle. Normally, I find once you drill with the smaller then bolt drill, the heat build up and the cutting action pushes it out of the other end. Or in my case, using reverse action drills, it pulls them out by unscrewing them. In the case of the back plates though, no thread came out at all!!! Not even while tapping them. So I suspect the bolts have fused into the hub for good.

 

[AliK]

A little more progress today.

Getting ready for reinstalling the hubs, I cleaned up the soot black grease off the bearings and races and was a little in two minds about doing a bearing job.

With the rear bearings done and more quiet cornering, I think I can hear fronts and given that I bought the Koyo bearings from PMAC about 7 years ago (for about £40 I think, those were the days!!) I figured it would be rude not to do it now while everything is apart. It would only bug me and be a pain to do them later.

Looking at that lip, there is clearly wear but you have to work very hard to feel it with your nail and the the race doesn’t have the usual roller bearing sized / shaped ridges. Would I have gotten away with torquing them tighter to compensate for wear? Probably, but I wouldn’t have been able to sleep comfortably!

I was surprised at how easy it was to get the races out with a chisel and patient side to side taps. The anvil rocks for this job!! I guess I’m always nervous about taking anything out that has been pressed in.

Now, if I had just put the new bearings in, I would have finished the job tonight but oh no, Mr Tarty pants had to brush away all the rust and treat the hubs before putting kids to bed and POR15-ing (the hubs, not the kids). I figured it’s better to put on that stuff without bearings / races in and potentially causing issues!

I did find some quite raised ridges on the edges of the mounting surfaces where some numpty had in the past hammered them on the edge to get the discs off!! In an ideal world I would have been down the machine shop tomorrow but they were easily flattened with gentle filing and some patience.

Meanwhile, I had soaked the old bearings in a tub of thinners to clean off the grease and look for wear. They feel like they have quite a bit of movement in them but I can properly compare when I get the new ones out of their boxes.

For now they sleep in the freezer with “Power Freeze” on at a chilly -24c that should cause some shrinkage and make the hammering home job easier tomorrow post homeschooling the monkeys.

I also treated and VHT-ed the discs to keep them looking nice for a bit longer - not that you can see them through my wheels but I will sleep better at night knowing they are shiny!!! I used to do this in my younger more time rich days when I had sports cars with big open alloys and it looks subtly nice + lasts a long time. Nothing uglier on a car to me than nice wheels showing rusty callipers and discs!

If anyone is afraid of this job or looking for detailed instructions (outside the FSM), I would recommend a quick scan of the link below:

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/frontwheelbearings/index.html

Should the new ones go in as planned, then I may have the front down on the ground tomorrow - first time in weeks!!! I need to do this ASAP as a few days of rain have been forecast here. Then it’s time to deal with the rear - should be straight forward, what could possibly go wrong!?

 

[peter_s]

Well done! Keep it up!

 

[AliK]

Thanks Pete! Getting there slowly.

A few days of small victories!

The hubs came up very nicely.

Re-tapping the strut assembly for the splash shields I managed to break yet another tap with very little force - this time a very decent one, so it’s clearly something I’m doing. Yes I go 1/8th turn forward, then half back and use cutting grease, so maybe I’ve been wobbling?

I was very pleased with my new shields right up until I tried to put the callipers on to test run . I had to modify them to fit my bigger Toyota callipers - which greatly pained me!! I hate cutting up perfect OEM stuff. But at least they fit.

Spot me crying in the background looking at the lines to cut!!

And here it is cut up - sadly not my finest hour for attention to detail but I had to get it done before kiddie bed time and it was really very noisy!!

Thanks to the very kind Mr Toopey, I replaced 3 out of four gaiters on one of the callipers - now that is an absolute pain of a job until you figure out that you have to wind the piston back all the way first. Also I discovered that my ball joint separator does an excellent job as a brake wind back tool on 4 pot callipers!


The bearings at a chilly -24 had shrunk by a mere 0.1mm but went home very easily.

Torquing the hubs is always a royal pain and I had not read the FSM properly about winding back 60 degrees. So that’s a job to be re-finished. I am not happy with the preload being over 2kg, so I will redo this and get closer to 1.5kg.

I satisfied my grease fetish by losing most of a tin of EP2 into the hubs!!

Also discovered that I had used one of the brake bolts on the strut to suspension arm holes. Interestingly the longer one is for the brakes and has a slightly smaller girth on the non-threaded part than the shorter ones.

Meanwhile the Z got soaked - but on the upside, it took all the dust and sand / fine dirt off it for the next proper wash. Spot the incredibly useful tool - the scaffold pole!!! Actually it came into its own for holding the hub spindle to stop it all rotating while torquing the suspension arm to strut bolts to 70lbft!!

For the reference of anyone wishing to do the Peugeot 505 discs with S12W Toyota calliper conversion on a late 260z / 280z, this is what the hole has been machined out to. The good news is Feroddo brake pads are still available for these callipers under £40 a set.

Spent a very tedious evening remaking all the copper brake lines I could see in the braking system.

This is the leaking master cyl to proportioning valve pipe - original left, mockup of better routing in middle and final Cuni pipe on right - fits like a glove now and doesn’t look tortured!!

Here are the rest. The super long one to the passenger side I had to stop halfway through as it’s too dark and I need to get the old one out first / remove the air filter housing to make room. They all get a coat of lacquer to reduce future oxidisation and discolouring - it matters!!! Adds at least another 2BHP!!

Here is why they had to be done. As Mr Huw correctly pointed out, copper work hardens and gives up. Well, both sides had issues with flares either disappearing into the nut, starting to disintegrate and leaking. It kinda explains why the brakes were feeling spongy and bleeding them didn’t make them much better. In fact this year I discovered the leaks by the master cyl front pipe and driver side calliper. Also I discovered some poor off-centre PO flaring too - simple rule, trust NOTHING the PO did mechanically!

Once that lot is done, I may be able to finally hook it all up, put back the brakes and bleed, get the arb on, tighten the compression rods and see if I can start on the rear! It’s been a bloody long journey!! But one that I feel good about as there is nothing that I haven’t reconditioned, checked over or replaced on the front axle. I just need my pipe flaring ends to seal under pressure for me to be able to walk away from it. Oh and of course there is that virtually new steering column from the US that is arriving in 3-4 weeks!!

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Good work Ali especially on the brake lines - very important.

You chose to ignore my post about leaving the splash guards off - fair enough. With my track car the biggest brake problem was heat so I could not see the point it having a reflective heat shield to retain the heat. I'm still trying to understand what they do from a practical point of view. If you drive through a deep puddle and water from the other side of the car gets splashed across and on to the inside of your disc is it going to be a problem and how likely is it?

 

[Albrecht]

Oh and of course there is that virtually new steering column from the US that is arriving in 3-4 weeks!!

LHD?

 

[Albrecht]

I'm still trying to understand what they do from a practical point of view. If you drive through a deep puddle and water from the other side of the car gets splashed across and on to the inside of your disc is it going to be a problem and how likely is it?

The brake 'splash shields' perform more than one function. If you look at the earliest S30-type, they have integral air ducts to allow cooling air to flow past the caliper, onto the brake rotor and out through the wheel. The out through the wheel part is quite important. Encouraging air to exit the wheel to the outside of the car is beneficial.

The integral duct type splash shields didn't last too long in production because people who drive in long straight lines without using their brakes complained that the ducts encouraged rain water and road debris to coat the calipers and rotors, causing noise and loss of efficiency (too cold...).

 

[AliK]

Thanks Rob - re. brake lines you are so right - tedious but puts my mind at rest and now I have the confidence that the lines will hold up to time and my abuse.

Forgive me Rob, I completely missed that post somehow! To be frank I honestly don’t know the difference they make either, but I figure manufacturers would not go through the hassle and cost if it didn’t do something magical . Also I had them sat there forever so they had to go on.

Here is an awesome solution I saw at Goodwood in the paddock on a racing e-type. According to the mechanic they are an “off the shelf” item for Jags. Looks very home fabricated to me though!

Now we need someone with skills and tools to make some for the Z community . Cue [mention] Atoman [/mention]!!

Joking apart, on other race cars, I have seen ducting from the front aimed at the back of the discs. But what I like about this Jag solution is, it’s cooling both sides and channeling the air into the vented part. In fact, given that the vents (on mine at least) suck air in from the centre at the rear and “throw” or “sling shot” it out on the outer edge, isn’t the most efficient way of cooling to feed cold air directly to that part of the discs? Some clever fabrication required.

But for the use my car gets I fear all of this is overkill and I should focus on getting her back on the ground and in the garage again! [emoji1787]

Edit: just did a google on it and everything I have read says the main purpose is to keep the brake dust out of the suspension components and reduce radiated heat towards rubber components. So it’s really a dust shield.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

The brake 'splash shields' perform more than one function. If you look at the earliest S30-type, they have integral air ducts to allow cooling air to flow past the caliper, onto the brake rotor and out through the wheel. The out through the wheel part is quite important. Encouraging air to exit the wheel to the outside of the car is beneficial.

The integral duct type splash shields didn't last too long in production because people who drive in long straight lines without using their brakes complained that the ducts encouraged rain water and road debris to coat the calipers and rotors, causing noise and loss of efficiency (too cold...).

I'd like to see a picture of those.

Yes on race cars air is ducted via tubes onto the disc and the ''splash guard/backplate ' is part of the ducting to ensure it is directed on to the disc. Ali's make as much effort as poss to keep the hot air in.

When I rallied in an Avenger we were in the 'standard' class (think it was called Gp N) and I remember my driver looking around a 'works' Avenger of Robin Eyre Maunsell. He didn't have splash guards and my driver got quite agitated by this because he reckoned that removing them wasn't allowed. I wonder if the HSCC boys keep their's on?

Edit HSCC 70s Roadsports - Brake ducting is permitted within the bodywork and must not be externally visible.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Ali - love the E Type pic. Keep going back and look at it!

I was only mentioning about leaving the splash-guard off to save you work and expense.

 

[AliK]

LHD?

Ah! Didn’t think the column itself was handed - is it!? I know the rack is but how is the column different in this respect?

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Ah! Didn’t think the column itself was handed - is it!? I know the rack is but how is the column different in this respect?

Where is the steering column lock on a LHD car? Is it on the left?

Edit - no same side.

 

[peter_s]

Excellent! All the pictures are a joy to behold.

What are you using for weighing the resistance of the wheel bearings? I just torqued and backed off 60deg. Might redo that...

 

[Albrecht]

I'd like to see a picture of those.

With baffle removable for cold/wet weather (average user didn't...)...