Baffled Sumps

[SeanDezart]

Maybe you should ask the same question of Arizona Z Car? I don't think its necessary to look for any kind of Genesis type moment for this kind of component. Special sumps for competition use are pretty much as old as the automobile itself. They pretty much all address the same problem and come up with the same solutions.

Nissan was making and supplying gated and baffled sumps for L6 engines from 1970, and by 1972 they were using cast alloy, gated/trap-doored, baffled high capacity sumps on their Works cars. They would sell you a full bolt-on dry sump system if you wanted one too.

I thought that it was alreadu clearly stated and accepted the AZC had copied Kameari hence why I never bothered asking and Kameari have copied Nissan - thnaks for the photo - love it but didn't Nissan do different styles or are those wide-pan jobs the USA making up stuff themselves ?

Now a dry-sump system....I wish I had the car to build around it.

 

[Albrecht]

I thought that it was alreadu clearly stated and accepted the AZC had copied Kameari hence why I never bothered asking and Kameari have copied Nissan - thnaks for the photo - love it but didn't Nissan do different styles or are those wide-pan jobs the USA making up stuff themselves ?

...and Kameari have copied Nissan...

I do my best to make things clear and easy to understand, but so often you seem to willfully misunderstand.

I'll quote myself in the hope that the penny will finally drop:

I don't think its necessary to look for any kind of Genesis type moment for this kind of component. Special sumps for competition use are pretty much as old as the automobile itself. They pretty much all address the same problem and come up with the same solutions.

How did Kameari "copy" Nissan? Componentry of this nature tends to find its own shape and form - as I tried to point out - as a solution to a problem. The sump in question has to fit an L6 type engine in an S30-series Z chassis, so most of its form will be dictated by that. What's not to get?

AZC (that's 'Arizona Z Car' for those who find abbreviations a challenge) share a castings manufacturer with KEW (that's 'Kameari Engine Works'....) for the cast sump pan, as far as I understand it. That's why there's a changeable core in the patterns to allow an insert with the vendors name on it.

The Datsun Competition USA fabricated sumps were made - by a USA-based fabrications business on behalf of Nissan Motors USA/Datsun Competition USA - to service a requirement in the USA. They were nothing directly to do with Nissan Japan, Nissan Sports or, later, NISMO Japan.

 

[SeanDezart]

Componentry of this nature tends to find its own shape and form - as I tried to point out - as a solution to a problem. The sump in question has to fit an L6 type engine in an S30-series Z chassis, so most of its form will be dictated by that.
AZC (that's 'Arizona Z Car' for those who find abbreviations a challenge) share a castings manufacturer with KEW (that's 'Kameari Engine Works'....) for the cast sump pan, as far as I understand it. That's why there's a changeable core in the patterns to allow an insert with the vendors name on it.

Ok, got that thanks.

The AZC pan, lists at $499. £378, thats about £300 less than the Kameari one. What I was politely saying without laying it in black and white, why would I pay £600 odd for the one listed, when for the same money it'd get a Kameari one.

What's not to get?

If all things are equal, I’d go for Japanese over American, just for better engineering.

What I don't get is :

a) the price difference

b) why Frankable believes there to be a significant quality difference somehow justifying that

Please would you share with us photos of a Datsun Competition USA fabricated sump ?

 

[Albrecht]

What I don't get is :

a) the price difference

b) why Frankable believes there to be a significant quality difference somehow justifying that

To answer the question(s), you'd need to know where the casting is made, where the subsequent machining/welding is performed, and the overheads (shipping costs, import duties, taxes etc) involved for both parties. You may well try asking each party for a breakdown of their pricing structure, but don't be surprised if they tell you to F.R.O. And quite rightly too, in my opinion.

Additional clue: AZC are a business based in the United States of America. KEW are a business based in Japan.

Any question of quality difference is best addressed to the person making that claim. Clue: It's not me.

Please would you share with us photos of a Datsun Competition USA fabricated sump ?

 

[Albrecht]

Please would you share with us photos of a Datsun Competition USA fabricated sump ?

The Datsun Competition USA 'Comp' oil pans are still being made by a company in the USA called 'Design Products':

http://www.dpracing.co/engine

 

[SeanDezart]

Thanks Alan.

Well, I don't see that the AZC has any quality flaws over the KEW.

M has spent a completely unecononomic amount of time and money including the manufacture of new castings to satisfy today's more discerning clients.

I don't think (?) that S made any attempt to fit JDM parts - all we hear of are locally sourced brakes, headers and inlet manifolds.

Are your photos of an out the door part or has it been modified since original purchase - I refer to the 'cut-out' on the RHside.

For the record, I haven't and don't mind the discussion on MY post - all enlightening stuff and won't distract from any sale although I recognise that the info will be more visible elsewhere under it's own heading.

Some interesting info and nice pictures here to help the Dick and Jane readers : https://webcache.googleusercontent....-turbo-surge-tanks/+&cd=6&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr

 

[SeanDezart]

The Datsun Competition USA 'Comp' oil pans are still being made by a company in the USA called 'Design Products':

http://www.dpracing.co/engine

Damn, I AM impressed by you - wow !

But not quite the same ? More a conversion : Competition wet sump oil pan, Datsun 240-260-280Z, includes windage tray and pickup tube. Requires a customer supplied core.
Price: $1600.00

Happen to know in passing how much their L6 flywheels weigh ?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

Ok, got that thanks.







What I don't get is :

a) the price difference

b) why Frankable believes there to be a significant quality difference somehow justifying that

Please would you share with us photos of a Datsun Competition USA fabricated sump ?

If you were going to have something American engineered or Japanese engineered, I'd take the one from the country famed for quality, its a Japanese car, I prefer it to have Japanese parts as it just 'feels' right.

Why are you so anti Japanese parts for Japanese cars? Do you not like the more 'original' parts?

 

[Albrecht]

Are your photos of an out the door part or has it been modified since original purchase - I refer to the 'cut-out' on the RHside.

As built, in that particular item's case, as far as I am aware.

But this is like fighting the The Hydra isn't it? Chop off one head and two more grow in its place. Answer one question as politely, honestly and comprehensively as possible, and get two more in reply...

 

[Albrecht]

But not quite the same ? More a conversion : Competition wet sump oil pan, Datsun 240-260-280Z, includes windage tray and pickup tube. Requires a customer supplied core.
Price: $1600.00

Not quite the same as what? It's a competition oil pan which uses the stock item's mounting flange as the base for a fabrication, hence the need for a 'core' charge. Nissan Japan did the same thing with their dry sump pans, but they had their own cores.

If you think that's somehow 'cheating', I refer you to 99% of aftermarket suspension setups for these cars. If you see one that fabricates the entire leg, stub axle and bearing housing, you have found the 1%. The rest of them use some or all of the stock leg and hub forgings.

Happen to know in passing how much their L6 flywheels weigh ?

No I bloody well don't. Try asking them yourself.

 

[SeanDezart]

But this is like fighting the The Hydra isn't it? Chop off one head and two more grow in its place. Answer one question as politely, honestly and comprehensively as possible, and get two more in reply...

It's this weather - I'm thirsty !

It's a competition oil pan which uses the stock item's mounting flange as the base for a fabrication, hence the need for a 'core' charge. If you think that's somehow 'cheating'...

No I bloody well don't. Try asking them yourself.

No, I didn't think that was cheating (bad habit you have of forking words into my mouth but accepted that it leads to answer your own statemnt to clear it up for myself and others - thanks), just always interested how and why re options - I cry that we never saw an extensive sports catalogue of parts on offer over several years here in Europe with a resulting dispersion of period goodies.

 

[SeanDezart]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Datsun-Com...ash=item4681454ab9:g:7nAAAOSw1qtbMcBt&vxp=mtr

Very rare Datsun competition high compacity oil pan. It is used but in very good condition. No longer available.

$1100 ono

 

[SeanDezart]

If you were going to have something American engineered or Japanese engineered, I'd take the one from the country famed for quality, its a Japanese car, I prefer it to have Japanese parts as it just 'feels' right.
Why are you so anti Japanese parts for Japanese cars? Do you not like the more 'original' parts?

I didn't answer you which is strange for me unless I thought at the time you were merely being protagonistic and not constructively contributing to the discussion with your 'feelings' ?

I am categorically NOT agianst Japanese parts - my car is loaded with them. Because I ask the questions means solely that I like to learn....not that I doubt. How do you learn - sit, listen then believe ?

Why is something made today in Japan 'original' or more so than made elsewhere....eg the dp racing sump, faithfully copying the period part used and raced ?

I suspect a lot of 'using Japanese' parts merely because of the country of origin is the same as that of the cars' production is like wearing loud-coloured Nikes......that one later discovers are made in Malaysia ! I'm not saying that Japanese parts are sub-contracted to other countries for manufacture - simply that one can judiciously buy parts from all over without compromising the finished quality of a Z - it is after all a world car eg Les Collins has a superb reputation for engine building and he's 1000s of kms from Japan.


Moving on to the today

I received this in the post this morning (see photos).

https://zcardepot.com/products/oil-...28-240z-260z-280z?_pos=9&_sid=c0010c767&_ss=r

Also available to be posted in kit form (you-weld). The finished article weighs 7kgs and uses the stock pick-up.

They also sell this ::https://zcardepot.com/products/oil-pan-racing-competition-moroso-7-quart-240z-260z-280z (I have one here too to compare)

which is also available here : https://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/2...GmHd2NziohwLPVd-CKi5k_0bZ8c_EcjfisUgNJ5Rgej8M

Although on my Z is this : http://www.arizonazcar.com/pan.html

which, we've been told shares its' casting with this :https://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/17-8067 but where they're both casted I don't know as the AZC version is half the price so I doubt that it's shipped from Japan.....

Also courtesy of Alan, the Datsun Competition USA carters are still made by the American company «Design Products»: https://www.dpracing.co/engine

And of course, one could always baffle a stock sump but risk to reduce the overall oil capacity.

Anyone can list anymore on the market currently ?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

Doesn’t sit well with me having no strengthening ribs/pressings

 

[SeanDezart]

Doesn’t sit well with me having no strengthening ribs/pressings

Does one really need a baffled sump for the road ?