4ways Zs original

[SeanDezart]

Now that the magazine is out and so is the cat, may we discuss these three cars ?

I'll start it off by mentioning that the (secretive) owners' wife was the principal force behind the design of the 'race' Z "essentially built as a design exercise for fun". She wanted the rear wings to ressemble the haunches of a horse - truth, she told me, I swear it on my sons' head !

Next, what did they cost each ? Ok, maybe a crass question but who doesn't want to know the answers ?

And finally, what was the ower output of the red one with the LY cross-flow head, supposedly sourced in Australia ?

And hasn't the Z world evolved since then ? "What?" You cry ! Well, of course, there is a 3.2 unit on 50mm choke carbs. producing the same bhp as mine as a 3.1 on 45s or more importantly Skiddells' as a 2.8 !

No knocking of 4ways work with a huge budget but 15 years down the line and the L series engines can still be pushed still further yet !

Nice article Rob - I was there in Switzerland too, and they quoted top speeds to me of 170 !

 

[twoforty]

Maybe one day I will get my club mag

 

[SeanDezart]

Maybe one day I will get my club mag

You're only in third gear- wait 'til you fit your 6 speed box !

 

[zedhead260]

The point of the article was about the cars and the specification, not the cost.

But on another thread, according to -

James Taylor of Duran Duran fame, spent well over £200,000 with Fourways on three Z's in the late 80's, (open cheque book) the red one cost £45K or so, the green one cost 68K and the race car with hand beaten aluminium panels with flared arches supposedly cost 140K

and................

Great idea for the article and yes, definitely DO NOT concentrate on figures - SOOOOOOO boring and not at all relative

 

[SeanDezart]

Rob, you're becomming as predictable in your fight picking as I was ! That's why I've stopped ! Stop being the anti-SD crusader as he's put his sword down- you're bleating about as if you're Bushs' private army against a small group of pygmies in central Africa who burnrt a US flag as a means to light damp firewood - in short, don't over-react

You've picked up on one question in a thread which I think raises some interesting points/info, all relevant but of course supplimentary to a nice article by yourself. I'm not trying to piggy-back onto your article, I hope that's not what you think. Now, for the sake of this forum and of the club; lets move on with regards every topic please !

The money question really relates to the level of finishing demanded by James - the panel fit for example is extraordinary for a Z and took ages, hence $$$$$$$ ! The figures go to show that you can have what you want and anything is possible

Can we not compare cars of nearly 20 years ago with what we're seeing nowadays ? There are certainly some fine engineering projects out there, the majority being done at home by the owners themselves

This is down to people willing to invest time and money in thier Zs but James was (imho) the first and not everyone at the time appreciated him for that - there was a lot of petty jealousy.

 

[Mr.F]

The credit James deserves is in not being predictable in his choice of car to spend his copious wealth on. While the majority of his peers would be thinking Ferrari and comparable supercars or looking at the Rolls / Bentley luxury market, he chose a comparitively mundane car and lavished Ferrari money on it.
The level of expenditure was extreme even by today's standards and way beyond the grasp of mere mortals back then. For a dedicated enthusiast with reasonable skills, a £50K budget in 2006 would build you an exceptional Z.
The open chequebook approach to James' three cars was hard to comprehend at the time and most members then appreciated the efforts of other very special cars which were more in keeping with a traditional approach - you hopefully don't forget the attention and publicity brought to the marque by Lynne Godber's Zep, James Morris' 240, Kevin Kaye's restoration and many others. A close friend and a man with an exceptional eye for detail, Roy Say was, at that time, creating a 240Z with the most beautiful engine bay that would put James' cars to shame. Ditto Dave Allen in Southend whose effort was the only engine ever featured as a Z Club magazine cover.
If the cars and the man had been more approachable, then perhaps more respect and understanding would have been generated - locking them away in cocoons is not a strategy that is going to endear! Loaning them for display in a motor museum would be preferable, perhaps?

 

[SeanDezart]

The credit James deserves is in not being predictable in his choice of car to spend his copious wealth on.

Agreed, as he was into Astons too - in fact, I thought that was how he 'discovered Zs', by having his Aston serviced down in Kent but one learns everyday !

While the majority of his peers would be thinking Ferrari and comparable supercars or looking at the Rolls / Bentley luxury market, he chose a comparitively mundane car and lavished Ferrari money on it.

Mundane is not the word I would have chosen Mike, modest, undervalued, under-estimated...almost value-less in comparison ? Certainly he would never expect to get anything back (in financial terms) from his investment !

The level of expenditure was extreme even by today's standards and way beyond the grasp of mere mortals back then. For a dedicated enthusiast with reasonable skills, a £50K budget in 2006 would build you an exceptional Z.

I know but he did choose the most expensive Z specialist too !

The open chequebook approach to James' three cars was hard to comprehend at the time and most members then appreciated the efforts of other very special cars which were more in keeping with a traditional approach - you hopefully don't forget the attention and publicity brought to the marque by Lynne Godber's Zep, James Morris' 240, Kevin Kaye's restoration and many others.

Hard to comprehend ? No more so than today Mike ! Wasn't it more a case of the Z culture back then was the give-it-a-go-yourself attitude and along came someone from nowhere ? Who missed the 'grudge-match' at Goodwood in '92 bewteen James and Tim Riley driving Big Sam ?

Not taking anything away from the names you have mentioned whose cars and others were regularly highlighting 'us' in the national press and books. Let's not forget Kevin Bristow and other rallyers, all the HSCC racers actual and past too and the drag and hill-climb boys !

If the cars and the man had been more approachable, then perhaps more respect and understanding would have been generated - locking them away in cocoons is not a strategy that is going to endear!

Perhaps he wasn't approached in the right manner to attract his interest - don't forget, he owed nothing to us as a club. And there are cars now being cocooned, I know of at least three including ZEP ! You're right, Zs are for driving...so why are there less S30s on the roads now ?

Loaning them for display in a motor museum would be preferable, perhaps?

Cocooned, you mean ? No, better to somehow get them out at JapFest days so people can appreicate them and be further stimulated to accept all Zs as cars worthy of such attention !

Isn't someone from the club in contact with Geoff at this very moment with that in mind ?

 

[Russ]

750 KG!!!

Turbo L24s making 1000bhp?

1.3+ bhp/kg?

 

[SeanDezart]

Turbo L24s making 1000bhp?

???

Be nice to see 750kgs in/on/around a road car

 

[Mr.F]

Mundane is not the word I would have chosen Mike

I did qualify it with "comparitively"...

 

[SeanDezart]

I did qualify it with "comparitively"...

Comparative to what, Mr F. ? Nothing mundane about a 240Z when they're only 150 odd in the UK compared to how many Astons and Ferraris ? And seeing how 'un-mundanely' they're doing against 'less mundane' machinery in the HSCC !

I'm getting my hammer and nails out ready....

 

[zedhead260]

Rob, you're becomming as predictable in your fight picking as I was ! ....................... - in short, don't over-react

I'm not picking a fight. I am quite calm - the voice you hear inside your head as you read my words is your voice, not mine.

You've picked up on one question in a thread which I think raises some interesting points/info,

I picked out the AndyTT quote as it loosely answered the question for the casual observer - but it could be pie in the sky as much as it could be fact............... and like you say boring and not relative to todays market/ money/ inflation / standard of living etc.
And cost was most certainly not on the agenda for discussion when I met with Geoff.

I'm not trying to piggy-back onto your article, I hope that's not what you think.

No of course I don't think that - it's nice that the magazine promotes some discussion on here (although I'm surprised it doesn't happen more)....so thanks.
And just for the record - the article was written from a taped interview over lunch. What you read is essentially Geoff's words, I merely transposed them to paper.
(thanks to Paul "Grolls" Grafton for setting up the meeting BTW).

The money question really relates to the level of finishing demanded by James - the panel fit for example is extraordinary for a Z and took ages, hence $$$$$$$ ! The figures go to show that you can have what you want and anything is possible

I think you've hit the nail on the head here - TIME ! ...but all the clues are in there -

• Geoff recall the heartache in getting (the paint) looking right; he'd never do it again.
• A lot of work was done in this area (ignition) to get it ticking over lovely.
• A week on the dyno getting it set up.
• Attention to detail was everything and a huge amount of time was spent in getting things just right
• Endless trackday sessions
• Hand beaten panels
• It (the gearbox) was a big job that required alot of research.

We can all count how much all of the parts came to (more or less) - but how can you quantify the time.

there was a lot of petty jealousy.

still rife today.

 

[SeanDezart]

still rife today

Now, you surprise me there - really ?

 

[VERTEMATIDOG]

I may have missed it in the article but does Mr. Taylor still own these Zs.

 

[Mr.G]

Yes, well done to Paul for organising. Thanks mate.

Good article Rob, I enjoyed reading that.

 

[Mr.G]

Yes, well done to Paul for organising. Thanks mate.

Good article Rob, I enjoyed reading that.

Yes Vermatidog, he still owns them.

 

[SeanDezart]

I believe his name is still on the 'pink slip'.

 

[zedhead260]

what was the power output of the red one with the LY cross-flow head

I don't think the LY head gave any more at peak (so assume 250 - 260 as per the green one), but it did spread the power out better - you'd have to compare graphs.

Nothing mundane about a 240Z when they're only 150 odd in the UK compared to how many Astons and Ferraris ?

Ok, there may only be 150 or so 240Z’s in the UK - but exactly what Aston / Ferrari are you comparing it against (from a numbers point of view). You can’t just say Astons / Ferrari’s across the board, otherwise you’d need to do the same with Nissan (350z, Micra etc)

Perhaps the debate should be (if they were for sale) – How much are they worth today ?

So make the assumption that all 3 were brought right up to scratch condition wise – but nevertheless still “used”. What would YOU be prepared to pay if you had the money ??

The green one - £20k ? considering the spec.
The red one - £45k ? (allowing £25k for the head)
The blue one – yikes !!!!

 

[SeanDezart]

Ok, there may only be 150 or so 240Z’s in the UK - but exactly what Aston / Ferrari are you comparing it against (from a numbers point of view). You can’t just say Astons / Ferrari’s across the board, otherwise you’d need to do the same with Nissan (350z, Micra etc)

Well, let's be generous and lump in all Zs - 240s, 260s and the few 280Zs in the UK and compare them to Aston DBs and Ferrari 308s, 328s and 348s !

Now don't start quoting ages to me ! Pick Porsche 911s too if you like and suddenly a Z isn't mundane - ask Skiddy to look up mundane in his dictionary !

No, I'm not intending to have a go at Mike....the point is, one small slip of wording and a car, or group of cars gets tarnished (look at 280ZXs when current !) and WE should be more careful than most !

Perhaps the debate should be (if they were for sale) – How much are they worth today ?

So make the assumption that all 3 were brought right up to scratch condition wise – but nevertheless still “used”. What would YOU be prepared to pay if you had the money ??

The green one - £20k ? considering the spec.
The red one - £45k ? (allowing £25k for the head)
The blue one – yikes !!!!

Not sure of the relevance of what James' cars are worth to us today and the comparison against AMs and the like but for my money, I'd have the green one for up to half what it cost (if it's as clean underneath as topside , you can keep the red one and the blue one is so restrictive in use, I couldn't justify paying even £20k. That's why I made mine a road car, even though it's got a de-tuned modsport engine in there Status paid his money and got what he wanted/paid for - Dave put his soul into 'my' engine and it shows, rather - it feels !

 

[zedhead260]

Not sure of the relevance of what James' cars are worth to us today and the comparison against AMs and the like

That was a new sentence - I'll hit the return key a few more times in future.



I believe all 3 cars came up for sale as a package once (but before my time and i don't know what the asking price was) - but if I had silly amounts of spare cash I'd keep the green one, but swap its engine for that in the red one, and then sell the red one (perhaps keeping a few choice parts for my 260 first ). The blue one for me is the most interesting; maybe go racing in it.