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chrisvega
Well-Known Forum User
Hi Paul and welcome to the club.
It is a refreshing touch to see you have joined as a proper paid up Z club member before getting your car. Shows you in a very positive light in my slightly old fashioned book
I think a lot of your opinions may have been formed by reading too many US forums.
There is no S1/S4 - a small minority of mis-guided US (enthusiasts ?) may try and claim such, but that is not anything officially recognised anywhere.
There are only production changes, some were improvements in the manufacturing process over time and others were perhaps mostly backwards steps designed to combat changes in US federal law ie bumpers that became progressively larger, carbs that were a stop-gap solution pre-injection etc.
On US forums they generally have a myopic view of the Z in referring only to the HLS30 model particular to their market, which was a pared down lower specification S30 model sold only in the States with 4 speed box, inferior steering rack, 3.364 diff ratio, softer springing, no rear arb etc
In the US market an early 69/70 HLS30 is more desirable..ergo collectable..ergo expensive but not so revered elsewhere although it seems some of our Euro friends are in danger of getting sucked in. I think this is a fairly recent angle and possibly pushed by investor types wanting to hype prices. It was true that by 1973 the stock factory cars offered over there were much less sporting than the original cars and laden with emission equipment, de-tuned carbs, lower compression, heavier bumpers etc and 0-60 times of over 10 secs but how many survive in that trim today ?
Like for like, in the UK an original rust free or nicely restored HS30 rhd car (of any year) would be more desirable and valuable than an early HLs30.
Most cars will have had changes to their original spec. and perhaps HLS30 cars more than any others due to their inferior factory spec. This is the beauty of the s30 model lineage.......engines, boxes, diffs easily inter-changeable, upgrades to steering, suspension, brakes etc very common so chances of any two cars having the same spec. pretty rare.
In terms of how they drive in factory trim, the 240Z offers the most basic, raw and connected experience with the later S30 cars offering a slightly more comfortable and sanitised experience.
The 2 seater 260Z RS30 is also less common than the 240Z with about half the number sold here new. Price wise hard to say and like/like comparisions difficult as so few genuinely nice cars come to the market but would say the RS30 260Z is slightly behind the HS30 240Z but not by much, maybe 10-15%.
Firstly decide on your budget (which may dictate your options) and then don't get too hung up on whether 240/260/280Z. If HLS30/RLS30 is OK for you it opens up a lot more opportunities. There is inverted snobbery and a top trump pecking order with all classic cars/marques, the John Cleese, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett sketch springs to mind. Just ignore it and do your own thing.
It goes something like this, 240z is better than 260Z is better than 280Z is better than 2+2 of any kind is better than a ZX ooooh but hang on, what about the ZX turbo, oh yeah, but I've got an early vented hatch 240Z, ha ha well I've got an earlier vin number, well mine is in the rarest colour, I've got a 432 trumps you all ........... and so it goes on. Now I've got that off my chest, what was your question again ? You did write a long piece for a first post
It is a refreshing touch to see you have joined as a proper paid up Z club member before getting your car. Shows you in a very positive light in my slightly old fashioned book
I think a lot of your opinions may have been formed by reading too many US forums.
There is no S1/S4 - a small minority of mis-guided US (enthusiasts ?) may try and claim such, but that is not anything officially recognised anywhere.
There are only production changes, some were improvements in the manufacturing process over time and others were perhaps mostly backwards steps designed to combat changes in US federal law ie bumpers that became progressively larger, carbs that were a stop-gap solution pre-injection etc.
On US forums they generally have a myopic view of the Z in referring only to the HLS30 model particular to their market, which was a pared down lower specification S30 model sold only in the States with 4 speed box, inferior steering rack, 3.364 diff ratio, softer springing, no rear arb etc
In the US market an early 69/70 HLS30 is more desirable..ergo collectable..ergo expensive but not so revered elsewhere although it seems some of our Euro friends are in danger of getting sucked in. I think this is a fairly recent angle and possibly pushed by investor types wanting to hype prices. It was true that by 1973 the stock factory cars offered over there were much less sporting than the original cars and laden with emission equipment, de-tuned carbs, lower compression, heavier bumpers etc and 0-60 times of over 10 secs but how many survive in that trim today ?
Like for like, in the UK an original rust free or nicely restored HS30 rhd car (of any year) would be more desirable and valuable than an early HLs30.
Most cars will have had changes to their original spec. and perhaps HLS30 cars more than any others due to their inferior factory spec. This is the beauty of the s30 model lineage.......engines, boxes, diffs easily inter-changeable, upgrades to steering, suspension, brakes etc very common so chances of any two cars having the same spec. pretty rare.
In terms of how they drive in factory trim, the 240Z offers the most basic, raw and connected experience with the later S30 cars offering a slightly more comfortable and sanitised experience.
The 2 seater 260Z RS30 is also less common than the 240Z with about half the number sold here new. Price wise hard to say and like/like comparisions difficult as so few genuinely nice cars come to the market but would say the RS30 260Z is slightly behind the HS30 240Z but not by much, maybe 10-15%.
Firstly decide on your budget (which may dictate your options) and then don't get too hung up on whether 240/260/280Z. If HLS30/RLS30 is OK for you it opens up a lot more opportunities. There is inverted snobbery and a top trump pecking order with all classic cars/marques, the John Cleese, Ronnie Barker, Ronnie Corbett sketch springs to mind. Just ignore it and do your own thing.
It goes something like this, 240z is better than 260Z is better than 280Z is better than 2+2 of any kind is better than a ZX ooooh but hang on, what about the ZX turbo, oh yeah, but I've got an early vented hatch 240Z, ha ha well I've got an earlier vin number, well mine is in the rarest colour, I've got a 432 trumps you all ........... and so it goes on. Now I've got that off my chest, what was your question again ? You did write a long piece for a first post
Interesting observation Rob concerning Joe public not being able to tell the difference! I have found the same when talking with some very experienced individuals in the classic car world. Many seem to presume that a 260z is only a 2+2.
The 260z for the UK market was I think produced during the latter part of '73 through to late '74. I don't know about the general European market although these obviously had the steering wheel in the glove box. Early 260z's have a very similar and light bodyshell to the 240z (even floorpan's are shared). The rear light arrangement is of course slightly different but otherwise the car is the same save slightly wider wheels and a bigger engine. The 260z did re-appear in the UK 77-78 but was a very different car (weight, pressings and engine suppression) than the earlier version.
We are all aware that there has been an exponential growth in the number of 'Z's' in the UK over recent years. A few years ago there were just 27 registered 260z 2 seaters here in the UK. Now there are maybe 60+. The 240z has seen an even greater rise to now 250+ registered cars. Most of the increase for both are LHD vehicles. Other late imports are slightly different (from UK spec) cars but are from RHD countries.
I think it is good that the car continues to increase in popularity.
Quite where the real market is I don't know. So many 240z's boast 280z engines and even more are body modified. I suppose as always the buyer will decide. For me, originality is best but a mild degree of enhancement is equally ok.
The 260z for the UK market was I think produced during the latter part of '73 through to late '74. I don't know about the general European market although these obviously had the steering wheel in the glove box. Early 260z's have a very similar and light bodyshell to the 240z (even floorpan's are shared). The rear light arrangement is of course slightly different but otherwise the car is the same save slightly wider wheels and a bigger engine. The 260z did re-appear in the UK 77-78 but was a very different car (weight, pressings and engine suppression) than the earlier version.
We are all aware that there has been an exponential growth in the number of 'Z's' in the UK over recent years. A few years ago there were just 27 registered 260z 2 seaters here in the UK. Now there are maybe 60+. The 240z has seen an even greater rise to now 250+ registered cars. Most of the increase for both are LHD vehicles. Other late imports are slightly different (from UK spec) cars but are from RHD countries.
I think it is good that the car continues to increase in popularity.
Quite where the real market is I don't know. So many 240z's boast 280z engines and even more are body modified. I suppose as always the buyer will decide. For me, originality is best but a mild degree of enhancement is equally ok.
P
Paul Evans
Hi All,
Thanks indeed for all your constructive feedback, most appreciated. I'm keeping an eye out for a decent S30 'Z' which will probably be a 260 or 280 2 seater variant, LHD. Your feedback re-enforced my own feeling that a 260Z or 280Z are as good as a 240Z in reality. Most of the Zs that I have come across appear to be 240Zs via Traders with inflated prices. I will avoid those and try to find one that has been looked after by enthusiasts.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and insight.
Thanks indeed for all your constructive feedback, most appreciated. I'm keeping an eye out for a decent S30 'Z' which will probably be a 260 or 280 2 seater variant, LHD. Your feedback re-enforced my own feeling that a 260Z or 280Z are as good as a 240Z in reality. Most of the Zs that I have come across appear to be 240Zs via Traders with inflated prices. I will avoid those and try to find one that has been looked after by enthusiasts.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and insight.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
It is a refreshing touch to see you have joined as a proper paid up Z club member before getting your car. Shows you in a very positive light in my slightly old fashioned book
Seconded, rare this days but how I started.
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
What do Sean?
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Want to take a guess Jason ?
Alphabettispaghetti
Club Member
Nope.Want to take a guess Jason ?
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
Take a risk, go on, maybe you'll be right.
datsfun
Club Member
In stock form, I concur with the experts above about the better driving experience of a 240z and gradual decrease in "sportiness" as you move from 240>260>280 etc
But in the real world, as most 240's and 260's will have had upgrades ---> carbs, suspension, brakes, engine capacity increase or ported cylinder heads etc, I doubt that there is much difference if any between a 240 and 260 when it comes to driving experience and feedback.
Don't be put off by the snobbery of many 240z owners. Remind them in stock form, a 260z 2+2 handles better
But in the real world, as most 240's and 260's will have had upgrades ---> carbs, suspension, brakes, engine capacity increase or ported cylinder heads etc, I doubt that there is much difference if any between a 240 and 260 when it comes to driving experience and feedback.
Don't be put off by the snobbery of many 240z owners. Remind them in stock form, a 260z 2+2 handles better
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
Unfortunately, it's the kind of nonsense that gets parroted like here:
https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/series.5904/
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
So, been 15years ish....
If one doesn't publish what not to believe, people carry on with the sun and planets revolving around a flat earth.
Someone should write a book....but we've been saying that for 20 yrs !
If one doesn't publish what not to believe, people carry on with the sun and planets revolving around a flat earth.
Someone should write a book....but we've been saying that for 20 yrs !
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
I believe the original text came from a page on zhome.com, which was replaced with this:
http://zhome.com/History/DesignChanges.htm
...so an elephant trap set, then abandoned with an "up date". The original text lives on in cut-and-pasted internet echoes.
http://zhome.com/History/DesignChanges.htm
...so an elephant trap set, then abandoned with an "up date". The original text lives on in cut-and-pasted internet echoes.
SeanDezart
Well-Known Forum User
1973 :
Dash layout changed, with backlight heater/vent controls, new hazzard switch design : never backlit here in Europe.
Headlight buckets changed from fiberglass to steel. I thought the change was earlier and that they are of resin ?
Intermitten windshield wipers added as standard equipment. Always intermittant in Europe.
When did the inertia-reel floor seat-belt mountings cavities phase in ?
If we don't discuss and highlight these untruths and stories, people will go on believing them and keep them alive in perpetual repetition albeit rehashed here and there.
Dash layout changed, with backlight heater/vent controls, new hazzard switch design : never backlit here in Europe.
Headlight buckets changed from fiberglass to steel. I thought the change was earlier and that they are of resin ?
Intermitten windshield wipers added as standard equipment. Always intermittant in Europe.
When did the inertia-reel floor seat-belt mountings cavities phase in ?
If we don't discuss and highlight these untruths and stories, people will go on believing them and keep them alive in perpetual repetition albeit rehashed here and there.
Albrecht
Well-Known Forum User
260Z must be a Series 5 then, or maybe Series V
Thing is, just like '240Z', the moniker '260Z' doesn't mean just one thing...
Much of the confusion comes from the fact that we started off on the wrong foot and have been trying to make sense of it all retrospectively. The idea that something called a '240Z' is somehow 'the beginning' is a concept largely propagated in the USA, but it is wrong. We should have understood that the S30-series Z was - as Nissan made clear at launch - a family of models that would evolve through its life. Through concept, design, styling, engineering, production and sales, the S30-series Z would cater for different market sectors and different sales territories.
Unfortunately, the then-President of the USA satellite operation insisted on marketing the car his way, forcing a last-minute name change (requiring new emblems be made) and telling all and sundry that this car was "for America". That idea is now pretty much set in stone.
Robbie J
Club Member
I'm like you 2+2 and 260 or later as I like the interior.... OK so I have the most undesirable S30 a 280Z 2+2 but I can get my son in the back and its the cheapest car out there for me to mess about withMy criteria was pretty much the opposite, wanted the 2+2, so 240 was out, prefer the rear lights anyway on 260 and they're interior, well centre console controls specifically
second car would have to be a Hakosuka or possibly a Celica
What i like most about all the Z's is that they all tend to be a little different, they seem to be far more tweeked/personalised than other classic's, you can have a whole row and they all differ in some way, which i really like
A little quarter panel emblem quiz:
Which came first, which one do you think looks most 'right', and which one looks like a last-minute lash up?
I'm going to guess the Safari Gold round Z badge came first in Japan?
Favourite is the 240Z emblem on the red one personally speaking however I'm guessing it was also done quickly for the US as a brand/image thing?