240z FIA head and calipers?

[IbanezDan51]

Agree with Albrecht, as it’s on a H plate I suspect it’s retained the correct identity however it does have the correct interior parts for a 70 so suspect all of that was switched from the later RHD car.

What also comes into play as he says it needs “a few minor areas sorting for perfection” - details? The bodywork needs to really be almost immaculate for that kind of money.

It won’t sell for over 40k. Under that? Maybe.

It’s worth 30K all day if the shell used was rot free and the conversion was done well/properly.

 

[SeanDezart]

Therefore, not actually any kind of re-shell or identity switcheroo?

Lovely car, but they must be clearly identified and understood - for whatever they really are - in order to command the big money.

Why must they ? The market asks and opays what it wants irrespective of us and our comments.

You mentioned long ago that one day la merde va taper le ventilateur with re-shells when values begin to rise.







But I still maintain that using an HLS30 chassis number on a RHD car IS an identity swap : HLS indicates left-hand drive ! Runs and ducks for cover...............

 

[SeanDezart]

Agree with Albrecht, as it’s on a H plate I suspect it’s retained the correct identity however it does have the correct interior parts for a 70 so suspect all of that was switched from the later RHD car.

What also comes into play as he says it needs “a few minor areas sorting for perfection” - details? The bodywork needs to really be almost immaculate for that kind of money.

It won’t sell for over 40k. Under that? Maybe.

It’s worth 30K all day if the shell used was rot free and the conversion was done well/properly.

Christ, the engine is worth half that Dan !

Retained identity , None of you object to the car wearing an early LHD chassis number but expect the car to wear early LHD trinkets.......make your minds up what you're expecting and then toss all that out of the window 'cos it's a great, clean car ready for driving in a market where it remains a rare car.

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

Christ, the engine is worth half that Dan !

Retained identity , None of you object to the car wearing an early LHD chassis number but expect the car to wear early LHD trinkets.......make your minds up what you're expecting and then toss all that out of the window 'cos it's a great, clean car ready for driving in a market where it remains a rare car.

250bhp for 15k?

 

[SeanDezart]

250bhp for 15k?

It's always max-power with you kids - what about torque, you know - that which accelerates the car that you use through every gearchange ? Besides, on a steel crank, if the pistons and the rest match - there's a reliable 8500 rev limit to be explored.

 

[SeanDezart]

Does this seller know what he's talking about ?

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1127873

Is it 'the right price' ?

 

[Alphabettispaghetti]

It's always max-power with you kids - what about torque, you know - that which accelerates the car that you use through every gearchange ? Besides, on a steel crank, if the pistons and the rest match - there's a reliable 8500 rev limit to be explored.

Yes Sean, you know I only care about max power.

 

[Albrecht]

Why must they ? The market asks and opays what it wants irrespective of us and our comments.

I repeat, cars MUST be correctly identified and understood in order to justify the top-end prices.

Do you honestly think that it's any kind of good thing for cars to be mis-identified and/or identities changed? You might feel happy with an anything goes attitude to it all, but civilians coming in to S30-series Z ownership - not being au fait with what goes on - are likely to get their fingers burned and will become litigious when the whole truth outs. They are liable to buy something that isn't what they think it is.

You mentioned long ago that one day la merde va taper le ventilateur with re-shells when values begin to rise.

I know of a few instances where it already has.

But I still maintain that using an HLS30 chassis number on a RHD car IS an identity swap : HLS indicates left-hand drive ! Runs and ducks for cover...............

Converting an LHD car to RHD is not a problem, as long as it is acknowledged and understood. The need to be carried out properly, with good engineering practise and, preferably, documented goes without saying. The chassis number has nothing to do with it.

"Identity swaps" are a different question. You cannot "re-shell" these cars. The factory never supplied new, un-numbered 'body in white' replacement bodyshells in the way that some other manufacturers did, and EVERY bodyshell has its own identity. Factory-designated identities are non transferable.

However, we know it went on and - occasionally - is still going on. We have to be pragmatic. There's some difference in intention on a case-by-case basis. A private owner 'saving' a particular car by swapping its identity onto a 'donor' bodyshell (and erasing the original identity of the 'donor' in the process) is one thing, but the intentionally fraudulent cases where the original identity of a car has been replaced with another for financial gain - ie 'ringing' - is another matter altogether.


As I've said, the car in question appears to be above board (unless anyone knows better?) as it is simply a case of an early LHD car being converted to RHD, and presumably - judging by the VRN - keeping its original 1970 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number. Nothing wrong with that, but the LHD to RHD swap needs to be part of the sales description in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

 

[SeanDezart]

Converting an LHD car to RHD is not a problem, as long as it is acknowledged and understood. The need to be carried out properly, with good engineering practise and, preferably, documented goes without saying. The chassis number has nothing to do with it.

"Identity swaps" are a different question. You cannot "re-shell" these cars. The factory never supplied new, un-numbered 'body in white' replacement bodyshells in the way that some other manufacturers did, and EVERY bodyshell has its own identity. Factory-designated identities are non transferable.

However, we know it went on and - occasionally - is still going on. We have to be pragmatic. There's some difference in intention on a case-by-case basis. A private owner 'saving' a particular car by swapping its identity onto a 'donor' bodyshell (and erasing the original identity of the 'donor' in the process) is one thing, but the intentionally fraudulent cases where the original identity of a car has been replaced with another for financial gain - ie 'ringing' - is another matter altogether.


As I've said, the car in question appears to be above board (unless anyone knows better?) as it is simply a case of an early LHD car being converted to RHD, and presumably - judging by the VRN - keeping its original 1970 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number. Nothing wrong with that, but the LHD to RHD swap needs to be part of the sales description in order to avoid any misunderstandings.

I find worrying contradictions in your prose Alan !

Converting an LHD car to RHD is not a problem, as long as it is acknowledged and understood. The need to be carried out properly, with good engineering practise and, preferably, documented goes without saying. The chassis number has nothing to do with it......... judging by the VRN - keeping its original 1970 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number. Nothing wrong with that

The chassis number has everything to do with 'it'. The chassis nuimber IS the identification.

Converting an LHD car to RHD is not a problem, as long as it is acknowledged and understood.

"Identity swaps" are a different question. You cannot "re-shell" these cars. The factory never supplied new, un-numbered 'body in white' replacement bodyshells in the way that some other manufacturers did, and EVERY bodyshell has its own identity. Factory-designated identities are non transferable.

the car in question .............. is simply a case of an early LHD car being converted to RHD...........Nothing wrong with that

But people ARE re-shelling cars, with shells that have another chassis number, effectively changing the identity of a LHD shelled car to RHD.

...........Factory-designated identities are non transferable

Agreed that the number is staying with the chassis (in most cases) but the HLS signifies Left hand drive - HLS can never mean HS OR it really doesn't matter then to what lengths Nissan went to properly codify their export chassis numbers.....and then you write this :

Do you honestly think that it's any kind of good thing for cars to be mis-identified and/or identities changed?

I remain of the view that changing an HLS numbered chassis RHD constitues a change of identity.

There's some difference in intention on a case-by-case basis. A private owner 'saving' a particular car by swapping its identity onto a 'donor' bodyshell (and erasing the original identity of the 'donor' in the process) is one thing, but the intentionally fraudulent cases where the original identity of a car has been replaced with another for financial gain - ie 'ringing' - is another matter altogether.

Ultimately, the private owner (as in this case now or the previous one before him) will sell it on, assumably at a profit so ANY chassis change is ultimately pecunious, even if only to remove many hours labour at the high rates today.

 

[Albrecht]

I find worrying contradictions in your prose Alan !

Probably because you don't understand what I've written, or simply haven't read it properly.

The chassis number has everything to do with 'it'. The chassis nuimber IS the identification.

How is that any different to what I've written?

I say again, Factory-designated chassis numbers are non-transferable and unalterable. No exceptions.

When you state that "the chassis number IS the identification", what do you mean by "identification"? Apparently you believe that making changes to the car (like changing from LHD to RHD, or - presumably - replacing the original engine with another?) somehow changes "the identification". I'm saying it doesn't. Because Factory-designated chassis numbers are non-transferable and unalterable.

But people ARE re-shelling cars, with shells that have another chassis number, effectively changing the identity of a LHD shelled car to RHD. Agreed that the number is staying with the chassis (in most cases) but the HLS signifies Left hand drive - HLS can never mean HS OR it really doesn't matter then to what lengths Nissan went to properly codify their export chassis numbers

I'm at a loss to find any other way of getting it through to you. You cannot "re-shell" one of these cars. To do so would involve erasing or altering one factory-applied identity and attaching another.

I remain of the view that changing an HLS numbered chassis RHD constitues a change of identity.

But how? As I've already stated, the Factory-designated chassis number is not a moveable feast. If you want to start a philosophical discussion on the meaning of "identity" in the context of these particular cars then go ahead, but I'll stick with the bottom line being that the Factory-designated chassis prefix and body serial number combo are the key.

Your position on changing an HLS-prefixed car to RHD seems to be that the identity changes. Where does that start and stop? If I put an L26 engine into a car that came equipped from the factory with an L24, have I changed the "identity" of the car? Of course not. I may have changed its details, or even its nature, but not its identity. I could put the whole thing into a crusher and use it as a coffee table, but that doesn't change its identity.

I asked you an - admittedly partly rhetorical - question in my last post:

Do you honestly think that it's any kind of good thing for cars to be mis-identified and/or identities changed?

...but you never went anywhere near it, did you? I'm talking about Factory-designated chassis numbers and supporting paperwork. I think it goes without saying that it is vital for a buyer to know exactly what they have bought. Therefore it will be, er, helpful if a seller describes it fully and properly - if indeed he himself is fully informed. I know of cases where buyers have discovered that their car is not what they thought it was, and it is not usually to their advantage.

Ultimately, the private owner (as in this case now or the previous one before him) will sell it on, assumably at a profit so ANY chassis change is ultimately pecunious, even if only to remove many hours labour at the high rates today.

You're doing it again, aren't you? What does "chassis change" mean here? In the case of the S30-series Z, "chassis change" means car change.

 

[jonbills]

Let's not have another off topic debate about identity and ringing please.

How about we discuss what FIA head or FIA brakes mean? What would the definition of them be?
Is it the kit that was homologated by Nissan and/or FIA allowed modifications to same?

 

[SeanDezart]

Probably because you don't understand what I've written, or simply haven't read it properly. How is that any different to what I've written?

I say again, Factory-designated chassis numbers are non-transferable and unalterable. No exceptions.

You sound like a teacher, who doesn't question themselves whether they have clearly enough (for all the students) explained the lesson. If I was asking, it was to clarify your points - it may seem crystal to you, but I believe a cars' identity is not all about and only the chassis number (more later*)

When you state that "the chassis number IS the identification", what do you mean by "identification"? Apparently you believe that making changes to the car (like changing from LHD to RHD, or - presumably - replacing the original engine with another?) somehow changes "the identification". I'm saying it doesn't. Because Factory-designated chassis numbers are non-transferable and unalterable.

Because Factory-designated chassis numbers are non-transferable and unalterable.

I accept that they are not ; MY point is that certain modifications DO change the identity of the car, you don't agree but that shouldn't imply that I don't understand your point of view - I do, I just don't agree with you. !

Take a person, has a passport but has facial surgery, hair change - do we not call that a change of identity ? Primarily because the identity of the person cannot be matched to their document ? Or is it when someone travels on a false passport ?

......or is it both cases ?

*

I'm at a loss to find any other way of getting it through to you. You cannot "re-shell" one of these cars. To do so would involve erasing or altering one factory-applied identity and attaching another.

You cannot "re-shell" one of these cars. To do so would involve erasing or altering one factory-applied identity and attaching another.

....or swapping ! If one cannot re-shell the S30s, the phrase has become common in use don't you agree ?

........... I'll stick with the bottom line being that the Factory-designated chassis prefix and body serial number combo are the key.

Doesn't that fall down then when an HLSU30 is now masquerading as a UK (euro ?) spec HS30 ? If we just said a '240Z', that would fit but the man who taught us all to use the term 'S30' (now widely used to his credit) would have a fit himself.

Your position on changing an HLS-prefixed car to RHD seems to be that the identity changes. Where does that start and stop? If I put an L26 engine into a car that came equipped from the factory with an L24, have I changed the "identity" of the car? Of course not. I may have changed its details, or even its nature, but not its identity. I could put the whole thing into a crusher and use it as a coffee table, but that doesn't change its identity.

So, calling a spade a spade - you're claiming that a Ford V8-swapped rhd S30 on a converted LHD imported shell with a GTO bodykit is no different in identity than an original shell UK market S30 or LHD European market S30 since they're all identified only by their factory issued chassis number stamped in the firewall ?

I asked you an - admittedly partly rhetorical - question in my last post:.......but you never went anywhere near it, did you? I'm talking about Factory-designated chassis numbers and supporting paperwork. I think it goes without saying that it is vital for a buyer to know exactly what they have bought. Therefore it will be, er, helpful if a seller describes it fully and properly - if indeed he himself is fully informed. I know of cases where buyers have discovered that their car is not what they thought it was, and it is not usually to their advantage.

Oh sorry, I thought I had. Yes, the seller should state that...if they're aware themselves but in most things in life, 'caveat emptor' - if a cars' condition is outstanding value** for the price, start asking questions and looking deeper !

What supporting paperwork would 'justify' a change of driver side, an engine or body-style (GTO, ZG kit) swap ? A DVLA report, an insurance estimation, an owners-club valuation report....an invoice for the work from Bodge and Leggit (carnossers to the gentry, 1 Railway Arch, Brixton ?

You're doing it again, aren't you? What does "chassis change" mean here? In the case of the S30-series Z, "chassis change" means car change.

For most laypeople, chassis change means re-shell.

**value - should a car be judged upon it's condition and any tasty extras or simply because it's history can be traced back to leaving the factory......which for the vast majority of cars exported is an impossibility.

 

[Albrecht]

How about we discuss what FIA head or FIA brakes mean? What would the definition of them be?
Is it the kit that was homologated by Nissan and/or FIA allowed modifications to same?

These are vernacular terms, often wrongly applied.

As you've already pointed out up-thread, even the factory stock brakes could be termed 'FIA brakes'. Anything mentioned in the FIA homologation, or evolutions/amendments of it, are technically 'FIA compliant'. The question is more a case of what rules the competition is running to.

I would imagine the car in question is fitted with Sumitomo MK63 4-pot brake calipers, either the vented rotor type or the skinnier sold rotor type. They were homologated for Appendix K competition use in the FIA 3023 fiche.

 

[SeanDezart]

Let's not have another off topic debate about identity and ringing please.

Ok, noted (our posts crossed) but PLEASE, copy our two texts to another, specific thread because I'm sure that many would like the subject discussed openly, if only to learn certain definitions eg 're-shelled'.

 

[Albrecht]

Let's not have another off topic debate about identity and ringing please.

You might want to wave your magic moderating wand and split some of this off into its own topic, judging by what Sean's just posted. If he sorts out his quoting I might even try to answer him. Feel a bit like Sisyphus though...

 

[Mr Tenno]

Ok, noted (our posts crossed) but PLEASE, copy our two texts to another, specific thread because I'm sure that many would like the subject discussed openly, if only to learn certain definitions eg 're-shelled'.

I think the discussions have all already been had here: https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/values-vin-swapping.23026/page-6#post-266548

If it's just a discussion between you two, you can do it over PM.

 

[SeanDezart]

Sisyphean is trying to seperate your personal point of view from fact.....yes please to an 'own-topic'.

ps sorry about the lack of quote punctuation - you did repeat yourself though......like the Londoner who shouts the same directions at a tourist in the belief that louder will be more clearly understood.

 

[SeanDezart]

I think the discussions have all already been had here: https://zclub.net/community/index.php?threads/values-vin-swapping.23026/page-6#post-266548

If it's just a discussion between you two, you can do it over PM.

I believe that there is more to dicuss on the subject and apprently so does Alan :
[QUOTE="Albrecht, post: 294423, member: 114" If he sorts out his quoting I might even try to answer him. [/QUOTE]

and I think we will both agree that it's in the public interest to discuss/debate this whilst sharing with everyone and where everyone can contribute. With respect, an exchange by PM helps no-one.

.....and you've already closed the thread you quoted.

I have no personal begrudge against Alan and I'm sure he has none towards me - this is 'merely' an intellectual exchange of beliefs on a subject which may well affect every S30 owner at some point or another.

 

[Albrecht]

If it's just a discussion between you two, you can do it over PM.

No thanks.

 

[SeanDezart]

No thanks.

Ditto.