1972 z432 £159,000

[morbias]

Thanks for answering my questions, I did actually phrase them so they would appear as 'bait' so to speak, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist

Bull and bravado already served, and plates cleared away too by the looks of it.

It's ok, I expected the condescending comment too

 

[Albrecht]

Thanks for answering my questions, I did actually phrase them so they would appear as 'bait' so to speak, I knew you wouldn't be able to resist



It's ok, I expected the condescending comment too

You'll be doing me a disservice if you honestly think I didn't know exactly what you were doing, and responding in exactly the way you expected me to.

For the record, the "bull and bravado" I was talking about was not posted by you. Perhaps you'd like to ask who Grolls was predicting it would come from, and why?

 

[Albrecht]

And morbias, if you've got any genuine questions that you think I might have the answer to (bearing in mind that I don't claim to know everything about these cars, and like to learn as much as anyone else) please just ask them straight, with no spin.

Thanks.

 

[SeanDezart]

Me, me, me ,sir !

Were the wing mirrors always black....or colour choice ie gunmetal or ?

And we see internet photos of bumper with and without the rubber corners....options, standard, later changes ?

Please.

 

[morbias]

Well fair enough then

(though they were genuine questions and I'm pretty sure you're the only person on here who knows the answer!)

Following on, do you happen to know if the zenki model had two available firewalls in the Japanese market, one with the AC holes and one without, or was there just one version where they cut the holes out afterwards as a factory modification?

[EDIT] Also, being a late 1972 car (though the ad seems to suggest an early '72) wouldn't it have had horizontal defroster lines in the rear screen? I thought the vertical defroster lines were only on the early '72s.

 

[Albrecht]

Were the wing mirrors always black....or colour choice ie gunmetal or ?

If we are talking S30-series Z in '69 through '73 period then IKI 'fender' mirrors in Japanese market were always satin black.

And we see internet photos of bumper with and without the rubber corners....options, standard, later changes ?

The only models to have the plain chrome bumpers without rubber corner trim in the '69 through '73 period were the 'Standard' / 'Z-Std' / 'Z-S' variants ('S30-S' Fairlady Z and 'HS30-S' Fairlady 240Z) and the 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R.

All the 'Deluxe' / 'Z-DX' / 'Z-L' models ('S30' Fairlady Z-L, 'HS30' Fairlady 240Z-L) and the 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 came with the rubber corner trim. 'HS30-H' Fairlady 240ZG had rubber corner trim on the (painted) rear bumper, with an extra strip in the centre joining the two corner pieces.

 

[Albrecht]

Following on, do you happen to know if the zenki model had two available firewalls in the Japanese market, one with the AC holes and one without, or was there just one version where they cut the holes out afterwards as a factory modification?

Sorry, can you clarify if you're asking just about the 432 model here?

Things can get quite complicated where the 432 and 432-R are concerned, and although they shared parts and specs with many other models (including many of the major body pressings) there were hundreds if not thousands of detail differences and umpteen minor and major changes during production.

The terms 'zenki' and 'kouki' are only (useful) shorthand and when talking about specific details and it's probably better to pin down year and even month of production being discussed for accuracy. In my experience, early cars were mostly seen without the holes in the firewall for the aircon hoses, and later cars were sometimes seen with. But in some respects it would be better to view '71-on 432s and all 432-Rs on a case-by-case basis. '69 and '70 specs are a bit easier to pin down with reasonable certainty.

[EDIT] Also, being a late 1972 car (though the ad seems to suggest an early '72) wouldn't it have had horizontal defroster lines in the rear screen? I thought the vertical defroster lines were only on the early '72s.

I believe this particular car is quoted as being October 1972 production/registration date, in which case I would have expected it to have horizontal defroster wires in the hatch glass. Quite possible that it could have been changed for an (NOS?) vertical type when the car was *restored* I guess. The car has been through the hands of a few dealers in recent years, so anything is possible. I'll bet some of the other glass on the car has been replaced too.

 

[SeanDezart]

If we are talking S30-series Z in '69 through '73 period then IKI 'fender' mirrors in Japanese market were always satin black.



The only models to have the plain chrome bumpers without rubber corner trim in the '69 through '73 period were the 'Standard' / 'Z-Std' / 'Z-S' variants ('S30-S' Fairlady Z and 'HS30-S' Fairlady 240Z) and the 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R.

All the 'Deluxe' / 'Z-DX' / 'Z-L' models ('S30' Fairlady Z-L, 'HS30' Fairlady 240Z-L) and the 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 came with the rubber corner trim. 'HS30-H' Fairlady 240ZG had rubber corner trim on the (painted) rear bumper, with an extra strip in the centre joining the two corner pieces.

Thanks, especially glad that the bumper differences are now clear to all.....

Never heard of a Z-DX.

I know of the Z-S and Z-L and now I do see Z-std and Z-dx....were these trim standard as they don't seem to equate with gearbox choices (and therefore tech specs ?) ?

 

[grolls]

And morbias, if you've got any genuine questions that you think I might have the answer to (bearing in mind that I don't claim to know everything about these cars, and like to learn as much as anyone else) please just ask them straight, with no spin.

Thanks.

It may have been asked before and probably a billion times, but if Nissan were producing multi cam cross flow engines that were clearly doing the business why then run with the single cam non cross flow or was it simply money?

 

[SeanDezart]

or was it simply money?

Yes, I think there's your clue.

The Z432s still outsold the Toyota 2000GTs

 

[Albrecht]

Never heard of a Z-DX.

I know of the Z-S and Z-L and now I do see Z-std and Z-dx....were these trim standard as they don't seem to equate with gearbox choices (and therefore tech specs ?) ?

It's just factory shorthand, with slight variance depending on what document you refer to and what department within Nissan made/used it.

'ZS', 'Z-S', 'Z-s', 'Z-Std' and sometimes simply 'S' are all shortforms referring to the basic, no frills (no hubcaps, no carpets, 4-speed etc) 'S30-S' Fairlady Z model in various factory documents (like the factory parts lists and workshop manuals, for example).

'ZL', 'Z-L', 'Z-l', 'Z-D', 'Z-DX' and 'Z-Dx' were used as shorthand for the 'Deluxe' model 'S30' Fairlady Z-L (all the bells and whistles, 5-speed etc).

When the L24-engined models debuted in the Japanese market towards the end of 1971 and joined the 2 litre engined models on the showroom floor, Nissan simply added a letter 'H' on the shorthand prefixes for the appropriate trim/spec concerned, so you got 'HZS'/'HZ-std' and 'HZL'/'HZ-Dx' etc. The 'new' model - the top of the range - got an appropriate new shorthand term, 'HZG'.

S20-engined models got 'PZ' (PS30 Fairlady Z432) and 'PZR' (PS30-SB Fairlady Z432-R).


The bumper situation is really simple. All you have to remember is that only the 'poverty' spec and the 'super lightweight/race' spec models came without the rubber bumper trim, for saving money and for saving weight respectively. Easy.

 

[Albrecht]

It may have been asked before and probably a billion times, but if Nissan were producing multi cam cross flow engines that were clearly doing the business why then run with the single cam non cross flow or was it simply money?

This is no different than asking why not all Ford Cortinas had Lotus twin cam engines, why weren't all Sierras Cosworths and why not all 356s were Carrera GTs. The answer seems quite simple, no?

The S20-engined cars were made and sold with a specific purpose in mind. That purpose was homologation for racing, and the prestige around it. It wasn't about making money from each unit produced.

 

[SeanDezart]

Thanks.

Not even carpet ?!!!!

The S20-engined cars were made and sold with a specific purpose in mind. That purpose was homologation for racing, and the prestige around it. It wasn't about making money from each unit produced.

That said.....they stopped persisting with racing the S20 to exploit the L-gata......

A reason why they stopped marketing the Z432 or was it no coincidence in '73 ?

Because internationally the S20 couldn't compete with bigger cc engines for power and endurance/reliability ?

 

[Albrecht]

Not even carpet ?!!!!

Specially moulded/fitted rubber mats instead. Change hands for LOTS of money nowadays because they are so rare, and because they were fitted to the PZR.

That said.....they stopped persisting with racing the S20 to exploit the L-gata......

A reason why they stopped marketing the Z432 or was it no coincidence in '73 ?

Because internationally the S20 couldn't compete with bigger cc engines for power and endurance/reliability ?

So many questions.

Nissan raced S20-engined cars from 1969 through to late 1973 in the C10-series Skyline GT-Rs (PGC10 and KPGC10), and there was a considerable amount of politics between the ex-Prince factory and race department at Murayama (which considered the S20 'theirs') and the Nissan race department at Oppama and its satellite at Omori. You have to take into account this inter-departmental competition/friction when discussing the racing history of S30-series Zs powered by 'S' engines and 'L' engines.

What put paid to the S20 as a production engine was the fast march towards stricter and stricter emissions standards in Japan, and the final blow was the so-called 'Oil Shock' caused by the OAPEC embargo following the Yom Kippur war. Suddenly 'performance' was a dirty word and there was a very strong push towards economy and modesty. It had a huge effect on Japan's domestic racing scene too.

 

[SeanDezart]

Specially moulded/fitted rubber mats instead. Change hands for LOTS of money nowadays because they are so rare, and because they were fitted to the PZR.





So many questions.

Nissan raced S20-engined cars from 1969 through to late 1973 in the C10-series Skyline GT-Rs (PGC10 and KPGC10), and there was a considerable amount of politics between the ex-Prince factory and race department at Murayama (which considered the S20 'theirs') and the Nissan race department at Oppama and its satellite at Omori. You have to take into account this inter-departmental competition/friction when discussing the racing history of S30-series Zs powered by 'S' engines and 'L' engines.

What put paid to the S20 as a production engine was the fast march towards stricter and stricter emissions standards in Japan, and the final blow was the so-called 'Oil Shock' caused by the OAPEC embargo following the Yom Kippur war. Suddenly 'performance' was a dirty word and there was a very strong push towards economy and modesty. It had a huge effect on Japan's domestic racing scene too.

In between the lines, are you suggesting that there 'weren't enough' S20s for all the competition applications ?

Were they even made in the same factory as the L-gatas ?

Yes....questions...... (it's raining here, no work and you should be knackered anyway up 'til what time this morning ?)....but without the spin or stir - just shaken .

 

[morbias]

Sorry, can you clarify if you're asking just about the 432 model here?

Things can get quite complicated where the 432 and 432-R are concerned, and although they shared parts and specs with many other models (including many of the major body pressings) there were hundreds if not thousands of detail differences and umpteen minor and major changes during production.

The terms 'zenki' and 'kouki' are only (useful) shorthand and when talking about specific details and it's probably better to pin down year and even month of production being discussed for accuracy. In my experience, early cars were mostly seen without the holes in the firewall for the aircon hoses, and later cars were sometimes seen with. But in some respects it would be better to view '71-on 432s and all 432-Rs on a case-by-case basis. '69 and '70 specs are a bit easier to pin down with reasonable certainty.

Actually I'm more interested in the manufacturing process itself rather than changes to a particular variant as it's the kind of thing I used to do! Engineering would come up with a solution to a probem and some poor unfortunate (often myself) would end up cutting holes in the chassis or whatever until such a time revised parts were received from the supplier. The part number would then 'go up a level' to reflect the change - some parts would go through four or five revisions to solve a single problem, or even to correct new problems created by previous so-called solutions. If there was some guy on the line having to do the same thing back then, I can relate to that! It's interesting (to me anyway) that the processes they use now seem to be pretty much unchanged from back then, but I suppose if it works there's no point changing it - if only some of engineering had worked to that philosophy...

Getting back on topic though, was the S much worse than the L at fuel economy vs power output or was it just the image that killed it off?

Also how many S engines were built in total? I imagine it can't have been that many at all given the exclusivity of the models it was put in.

 

[SeanDezart]

Also how many S engines were built in total? I imagine it can't have been that many at all given the exclusivity of the models it was put in.

I'm not qualified to specifically answer that one but I think that you will be shocked byThe response - there were a LOT of Skylines built....

 

[morbias]

What put paid to the S20 as a production engine was the fast march towards stricter and stricter emissions standards in Japan

Oddly enough I have just read a quite similar discussion on hybridz.org. Though according to comments on there it was killed off 'because America' - well there's a surprise!

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119...rom-derek-at-datsunworks/page-29#entry1158596

 

[morbias]

I'm not qualified to specifically answer that one but I think that you will be shocked byThe response - there were a LOT of Skylines built....

Well, numbers on Wikipedia suggests around 2700, but then it's Wikipedia so how accurate that is I don't know! If that's roughly correct then that's not many at all.

 

[Rob Gaskin]

Guys wait until Alan writes his book.